National redoubt?

Hashasheen

Banned
i wasreading a history of world war2 recently, and this came to fore:
Werewolves and the National redoubt. the supposed existence of a Nazi Last stand in Bavaria, around Hitler;s summer home. the idea didnt occur to hitler until april 1945 to late to organize a strategy around it.
WI hitler had thought of it in 1944, and took the steps to ensure it? how would it affect the Armies going through the Reich, and the Allied leadership.
 
i wasreading a history of world war2 recently, and this came to fore:
Werewolves and the National redoubt. the supposed existence of a Nazi Last stand in Bavaria, around Hitler;s summer home. the idea didnt occur to hitler until april 1945 to late to organize a strategy around it.
WI hitler had thought of it in 1944, and took the steps to ensure it? how would it affect the Armies going through the Reich, and the Allied leadership.

Germany had little to no resources to devote to an organization of a national resistance in Bavaria by 1944, as the Nazis were on their last legs. Any attempted operations would have bled needed men and material away from the front lines, making the Allies' job easier. Besides, at best the Nazis could only hope these "redoubts" could stand up to an onslaught for a few weeks, if at all.
 
A national redoubt filled with Waffen-SS units ready for a last stand might have caused some military problems and probably quite a lot of anxiety in Allied circles. If the terrain really favoured a defence, it might have led to a prolonged battle of attrition but the end result would not have been in question. The allies would have won, maybe at high cost. Yet those casualties would be offset by easier victories elsewhere because the Waffen-SS units were no longer be there instead.

The biggest difference would come from the Werewolf programme IMO. This apparently scared the pants off Eisenhower and draconian countermeasures were planned including the killing of large numbers of hostages for every American/Allied soldier killed. Off course, this was exactly the same what the Germans did (which proved counter-productive and led to major resistance organizations) and several German commanders have subsequently been sentenced for war crimes. Somehow, I can’t see Eisenhower & Co in court for a similar war crime so the Nuremberg trial would have been even more of a farce ( had Eisenhower & Co been held to the same standards as their defeated opponents in OTL, Patton would have been hanged and Eisenhower would have been sentenced to 10 years!).

Harsh repercussions would have alienated the German population and the cycle of assassinations and repercussions would have made the occupation a rather nasty affair.

Germany would not have been rehabilitated as quickly as it was OTL to become a NATO member and the entire development of European integration might not have happened or at least have been severely impeded.
 
as for the Werewolves


By june of 1945 The main thing on most of the German populous was food. There were several troop movements cancelled, due to the Troops being so busy passing out food supplies.
There are also stories of German units walking up to the front gate of the holding camps, and asking when is the next meal.

I seriously doubt if the population would have accepted the Werewolve disruption.
 
as for the Werewolves


By june of 1945 The main thing on most of the German populous was food. There were several troop movements cancelled, due to the Troops being so busy passing out food supplies.
There are also stories of German units walking up to the front gate of the holding camps, and asking when is the next meal.

I seriously doubt if the population would have accepted the Werewolve disruption.

Ideally, citizens just want to be left alone, preferably in some measure of comfort. The allies were popular in post-war Germany because they provided food, the bombing stopped and anything was better than being ruled by Nazis.

But occupation by the allies would not have been so nice if the allies started indiscriminate killings and other harsh measures, as they planned OTL, in response to Werewolf.

Experience has shown (all over Europe and the rest of the world) that locals support resistance fighters, even if their actions lead to harsh repercussions. In fact, the harsher the repression, the more freedom fighters arise.

Only a sophisticated "hearts & minds" campaign can break that dynamic. I rather doubt the allies would be capable of such a campaign, after having fought against the Germans for years and having uncovered the genocide camps.
 
By 1945 National Socialism was utterly discredited in Germany. Any comparisons to occupied France etc fall down because of this. Germans just wanted food, peace and "normality".

Unlike the Japanese with their Emperor cult and Western countries with their democratic traditions...even the Soviets had their ethic of communism...Germany in 1945 had nothing..utterly bankrupt in ethics, philosophy and nationalism.

Resistance would have had no basis of support.
 

Markus

Banned
The others already commented on the German´s lack of enthusiasm for more war. Hitler won´t sign on to this, too. Preparing for an insurgency meant acknowledging defeat, that is contrary to Hitler´s whole personality. So this idea is ASB.
 
By 1945 National Socialism was utterly discredited in Germany. Any comparisons to occupied France etc fall down because of this. Germans just wanted food, peace and "normality".

Unlike the Japanese with their Emperor cult and Western countries with their democratic traditions...even the Soviets had their ethic of communism...Germany in 1945 had nothing..utterly bankrupt in ethics, philosophy and nationalism.

Resistance would have had no basis of support.

I don't think the general populace would have been fighting for Nazism (which indeed was a bankrupt ideology by then). But rather to protect themselves and inflict harm on brutal invaders, as the Nazi's already had recognized with their Volks~ appellation to everything they could think of in the latter part of the war.

Everybody wants food, peace and "normality", the conquered masses of 1940 Western Europe as much as the equally conquered masses of 1941 Eastern Europe. But if they are faced with oppression and indiscriminate killings in reprisals, everybody takes up arms as happened during WWII. The Germans would not have been any different in similar circumstances.

A resistance movement in Germany was therefore a genuine concern in allied circles and a major effort was planned to prevent this from happening, from making use of low level local officials (even if they had been die-hard Nazis) and a relatively gentle occupation to distributing food and supplies to keep the Germans content with their lot.

That is why Werewolf struck such fear in the allied high command. It would mean that such "gentle" measures would not be possible which would inevitably lead to rising anger within the wider German populace as they suffered under harsh counter-insurgency measures which always work on "collective guilt" as it usually is impossible to pinpoint the actual perpetrators as long as they are supported and shielded by the general public. A resistance movement in occupied Germany might well have risen and become a long-term problem for the allies, irrespective of its original starting point.

Nobody was looking forward to that. But that doesn't mean it couldn't have under the right circumstances.
 

burmafrd

Banned
One is also forgetting the national shame that the Germans began to feel when forced to confront the undeniable facts of the Holocaust. Just how much support would the werewolves have had.

By the way ranoncles I have to laugh at the BS about war crimes in the allies. Compared to just about any other group in the second world war the US/British forces behaved better then any of them. There will ALWAYS be cases of shootings of prisoners, etc. That is WAR.
 
By the way ranoncles I have to laugh at the BS about war crimes in the allies. Compared to just about any other group in the second world war the US/British forces behaved better then any of them. There will ALWAYS be cases of shootings of prisoners, etc. That is WAR.

You laugh because you are a hypocrite.

Nobody denies the Nazis were one of the most evil people in history. But the Nuremberg trials have little to do with Justice and everything with power politics and victor's justice. Some of the charges applied against some of the accused did not even exist in law before the trial (such as preparing for a war). And then they were only applied on the Germans and not on the allies. Because the allies also invaded neutral countries like Iran and occupied it, doing the same as the Germans did with Poland. Besides, how much moral authority do you think a colonial power like England or the Soviet Union has?

Still feeling hypocrite?

How about Field Marshal von Kleist? He was handed over to the Russians and sentenced because he had been too nice to the Russians, thereby creating a situation in which the locals might switch their allegiance to him instead of the communist rulers.....Obviously a man who needed to be punished for his wartime activities.

Simply put, if the allies had been held to the same standards as the Germans who were charged for war crimes, a surprisingly large number of them would have been sentenced as well.

War may well be war but unless both parties are held to the same standards of conduct, any form of institutional "justice" stinks to high heaven.
 

burmafrd

Banned
Try and use your brain. Trying to say that the allies (now I am NOT talking about Russia of course) did anything near the scale or anyway else what the SS and Gestapo and company did is to make me LAUGH HARDER.

I did not address Nuremburg where it is true that some of that was a farce.

However anything to do with the holocaust was not.
 
However anything to do with the holocaust was not.

Actually, much of the Holocaust evidence was gathered by the Soviets (since the extermination camps were in their possession); it might be healthy to take some of it with a grain of salt.

(Everyone note, just in case some moron decides to call this Holocaust denial, that that's NOT what I'm saying at all. Rather, particulars might be wrong, though the overall truth isn't.)
 
Ideally, citizens just want to be left alone, preferably in some measure of comfort. The allies were popular in post-war Germany because they provided food, the bombing stopped and anything was better than being ruled by Nazis.

But occupation by the allies would not have been so nice if the allies started indiscriminate killings and other harsh measures, as they planned OTL, in response to Werewolf.

Experience has shown (all over Europe and the rest of the world) that locals support resistance fighters, even if their actions lead to harsh repercussions. In fact, the harsher the repression, the more freedom fighters arise.

Only a sophisticated "hearts & minds" campaign can break that dynamic. I rather doubt the allies would be capable of such a campaign, after having fought against the Germans for years and having uncovered the genocide camps.

Or, you just wipe out everyone; that works too, though the area isn't too productive afterwards and everyone sane will think you're a crazy barbarian fucker. The Germans tried this IOTL; 1/4th to 1/3rd of White Russia's population died during the war. Once everyone's dead, there's nowhere left for the Resistance to hide.

As for dystopic WW2 scenarios, I like the ones where the Morgenthau Plan comes into effect and Wallace's/Eisenhower's evil statist USA conquers the world.
 
Try and use your brain. Trying to say that the allies (now I am NOT talking about Russia of course) did anything near the scale or anyway else what the SS and Gestapo and company did is to make me LAUGH HARDER.

I did not address Nuremburg where it is true that some of that was a farce.

However anything to do with the holocaust was not.


Interesting, so doing some evil is not so bad as doing untold evil?
Yes, the Nazis were truly evil on an industrial scale. So does that excuse certain allied officers, soldiers and politicians/administrators? Because they happened to be on the "right" side? Or because they did it for a good cause?

Only,....the Germans also thought they were on the right side and doing their hideous actions for a good cause!

Justice only works if it is impartial. War crimes are war crimes. It shouldn't matter who commits them. Unless you happen to be a hypocrite.
 
Or, you just wipe out everyone; that works too, though the area isn't too productive afterwards and everyone sane will think you're a crazy barbarian fucker. The Germans tried this IOTL; 1/4th to 1/3rd of White Russia's population died during the war. Once everyone's dead, there's nowhere left for the Resistance to hide.


White Russia and Poland were a special case for the Nazis. These areas were to be incorporated in the Greater Reich. The population was to be largely exterminated or driven away with a minority left to serve as slaves for new German settlers.

The Germans generally divided their conquered areas in 3 categories. Western, where they retained some aspects of civilized behaviour (Low Countries, Scandinavia).
Sub-Western, where they responded with outright brutality (France, Italy, Balkans)
Sub-human, where any excess was allowed as the human stock was not deemed of any value.
 
i wasreading a history of world war2 recently, and this came to fore:
Werewolves and the National redoubt. the supposed existence of a Nazi Last stand in Bavaria, around Hitler;s summer home. the idea didnt occur to hitler until april 1945 to late to organize a strategy around it.
WI hitler had thought of it in 1944, and took the steps to ensure it? how would it affect the Armies going through the Reich, and the Allied leadership.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Redoubt#Nazi_Germany

Ac.redoubt.jpg
 
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