Narvik 1915

[MK5]

Has anybody considered the possibilities of a German and/or Allied invasion of Denmark and Norway in WWI? Was Germany less dependent on Scandenavian iron ore in the First world war than in the Second?
WI Churchill had convinced the British government of the need to cut off Germany's iron ore supply at the source, as he did in 1940? Given the slower communications of the time, the Allies probably would have gotten there first. Would the Germans respond as they did in 1940 OTL? Would they use the idle liners of the Hamburg-Amerika line as troopships? Would the Danes and Norwegians be better or less prepared to resist than in 1940? Would this be a burden or an opportunity (or both) for the High Seas Fleet? Bases on the Norwegian coast would have been just as tempting in 1915 as in 1940..

Any thoughts?

 

[Grey Wolf]

Has anybody considered the possibilities of a German and/or Allied invasion of Denmark and Norway in WWI? Was Germany less dependent on Scandenavian iron ore in the First world war than in the Second?
WI Churchill had convinced the British government of the need to cut off Germany's iron ore supply at the source, as he did in 1940? Given the slower communications of the time, the Allies probably would have gotten there first. Would the Germans respond as they did in 1940 OTL? Would they use the idle liners of the Hamburg-Amerika line as troopships? Would the Danes and Norwegians be better or less prepared to resist than in 1940? Would this be a burden or an opportunity (or both) for the High Seas Fleet? Bases on the Norwegian coast would have been just as tempting in 1915 as in 1940..

Any thoughts?

Norwegian independence is guaranteed by international treaty

Sweden was pro-Central Powers in so far as they were anti-Russian

The HSF is better served by the mine belts of Heligoland Bight

Some initial thoughts whilst talking on the phone

Grey Wolf

 

[Beck Reilly]

I took a TL from 1914 - 1939 a couple weeks ago. The whole premise I started off with was trying to find a way to get a Nordic Alliance in WWII. Anyways, my POD was a simple border-incident which spiralled out of control between Germany and Denmark.

 

[Grey Wolf]

I took a TL from 1914 - 1939 a couple weeks ago. The whole premise I started off with was trying to find a way to get a Nordic Alliance in WWII. Anyways, my POD was a simple border-incident which spiralled out of control between Germany and Denmark.

I really don't know if that would work - Norway was neutral by international treaty so I can hardly see them jumping in to support Denmark, and Sweden is both pro-German and determined to keep its own counsel. If Denmark WAS invaded then its probably great for Britain which can hope for a second front

Don't forget 1940 has NOT happened, and no one is going to view war with Denmark as leading in any way to war with Norway. It would seem to be unbelievable

Grey Wolf

 

[Beck Reilly]

Don't forget 1940 has NOT happened, and no one is going to view war with Denmark as leading in any way to war with Norway. It would seem to be unbelievable.

I would have thought that, too. But the three Nordic nations DID, in fact, sign a treaty amongst each other guaranteeing each other's neutrality in OTL. At the beginning of WWI, the three nations signed a treaty pledging to defend one another in the case of war. My ATL just takes advantage of that treaty.

 

[Grey Wolf]

I would have thought that, too. But the three Nordic nations DID, in fact, sign a treaty amongst each other guaranteeing each other's neutrality in OTL. At the beginning of WWI, the three nations signed a treaty pledging to defend one another in the case of war. My ATL just takes advantage of that treaty.

Really ??? Could you find me the treaty or a link for this, I would be fascinated to read it... I guess this kind of thing gets ignored coz no one usually bothers to mention it, and if its not mentioned how can one hear about it ?

Grey Wolf

 

[Beck Reilly]

Really ??? Could you find me the treaty or a link for this, I would be fascinated to read it...

Hmm...I'm having trouble finding the document itself, but I have found several passing mentions of it:


" In 1914, at the beginning of World War I, Sweden declared its neutrality and subsequently entered an agreement with Norway and Denmark to defend the neutrality and protect the common economic interests of the Scandinavian countries. "

- Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia 2003.

" Eventually, through cooperation and joint commitments with Sweden and Norway, Denmark managed to retain its fragile hold on wartime neutrality, but at a high price in terms of unemployment, higher taxes, and endless neuroses and self-doubts. "

- http://www.frommers.com/destinations/denmark/0220032626.html

" On December 21st 1912, Sweden, Norway and Denmark had declared their NEUTRALITY and defined the latter in an agreement on its principles. "

- http://www.zum.de/whkmla/region/scandinavia/swe191418.html


I'll keep looking though...

 

[Grey Wolf]

Hmm...I'm having trouble finding the document itself, but I have found several passing mentions of it:


" In 1914, at the beginning of World War I, Sweden declared its neutrality and subsequently entered an agreement with Norway and Denmark to defend the neutrality and protect the common economic interests of the Scandinavian countries. "

- Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia 2003.

" Eventually, through cooperation and joint commitments with Sweden and Norway, Denmark managed to retain its fragile hold on wartime neutrality, but at a high price in terms of unemployment, higher taxes, and endless neuroses and self-doubts. "

- http://www.frommers.com/destinations/denmark/0220032626.html

" On December 21st 1912, Sweden, Norway and Denmark had declared their NEUTRALITY and defined the latter in an agreement on its principles. "

- http://www.zum.de/whkmla/region/scandinavia/swe191418.html


I'll keep looking though...

I'm not sure I interpret these the same way

http://www.zum.de/whkmla/region/scandinavia/swe191418.html
shows that discussions about joining Germany in the war went on into 1916 before public opinion began to turn the other way

There is a difference between a joint declaration of neutrality and an intention to form an armed league to support that

Grey Wolf

 

[raharris1973]

Good question - was Germany in OTL able to import Norwegian iron ore during WWI? During both the summer and winter? Was or was this not a serious problem for Germany?

 

[Beck Reilly]

There is a difference between a joint declaration of neutrality and an intention to form an armed league to support that

I interpret the article from Encarta, which is more reputable than that link, to mean that there was a pledge of armed support...

 

[Grey Wolf]

I interpret the article from Encarta, which is more reputable than that link, to mean that there was a pledge of armed support...

Can you copy and post it ? I am not inclined to trust Encarta better than others without evidence as its an encyclopedia so could easily IMHO conflate evidence

Thanks

Grey Wolf

 

[Beck Reilly]

Article: Sweden
Section: F, Sweden During the World Wars

Text: "In 1907 Gustav V succeeded to the throne, and two years later constitutional amendments extended the voting franchise and inaugurated proportional representation as well as other reforms.

In 1914, at the beginning of World War I, Sweden declared its neutrality and subsequently entered an agreement with Norway and Denmark to defend the neutrality and protect the common economic interests of the Scandinavian countries. Sweden joined the League of Nations in 1920. Led by the great Swedish statesman Karl Hjalmar Branting, the Social Democratic Party became the leading force in Swedish politics. Socialist governments remained in power until 1928, enacting social reforms that made Sweden prominent in this regard. The Conservative Party was brought into office in 1928, but the coming of the worldwide economic and industrial depression shortly afterward restored the Social Democrats to office in 1932.

In the late 1930s, when war seemed imminent in Europe, military preparedness and national defense became a paramount question. The Swedish government proclaimed neutrality on the outbreak of World War II in 1939. Despite frequent border incidents and German attacks on Swedish shipping, the country maintained its neutral status throughout the war."

Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2003



It's just a short blurb, but it's useful for writing a timeline with the Nordic nations in WWI...

 

[Grimm Reaper]

So it would have meant war with Sweden, maybe Denmark as well? In addition, Norway's army was much better in WWI, with six divisions, as opposed to equivalent brigades in WWII. Also, the same equipment and training in WWI was more valuable than in 1940(tanks, Stukas, etc).