Napoleonic Wars Question/Challenge

Lets assume that the HRE and Prussia was united at the time of Napoleons invasion of Germany, (with the capital being either Berlin or Vienna) but the German states are united into a single country (imagine quite centralized). How well would Napoleon do in this scenario against the German nation united against him and as a single state? How much shorter would the time be before Napoleon is defeated?

Also, butterflies are contained in this scenario.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Conceivably it would be better for Napoleon, as he would only have to negotiate with a single defeated German monarch after smashing his army to bits.
 
Conceivably it would be better for Napoleon, as he would only have to negotiate with a single defeated German monarch after smashing his army to bits.

it was easy for Napoleon otl because the germans were disunited...he could pick off one at a time....if the HRE united, hed face nearly half of europe at once, under a single banner....far worse prospects for him...especially the earlier you unify them...

though thinking on it, it may be better for France in the long run...with no massive wars driving their economy down, theyd maintain their colonies in the americas, prevent the manifest destiny of the usa (for a while at least) and probaly have a stable napoleonic empire lasting (mabye still invading spain), with some good luck, to the modern day....which in turn would drastically reduce the amount of republics in the world and untold other butteflies (because you cant contain them)
 
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it was easy for Napoleon otl because the germans were disunited...he could pick off one at a time....if the HRE united, hed face nearly half of europe at once, under a single banner....far worse prospects for him...especially the earlier you unify them...

though thinking on it, it may be better for France in the long run...with no massive wars driving their economy down, theyd maintain their colonies in the americas, prevent the manifest destiny of the usa (for a while at least) and probaly have a stable napoleonic empire lasting (mabye still invading spain), with some good luck, to the modern day....which in turn would drastically reduce the amount of republics in the world and untold other butteflies (because you cant contain them)

Think of the Franco-Prussian War. A single encirclement broke the French army. Dissent took advantage, and the result is that Bismarck humiliated the French.

With Napoleon at hand, it will be possible to defeat a united Germany in a single stroke rather than occupying multiple states and making peace with each of them.
 
Think of the Franco-Prussian War. A single encirclement broke the French army. Dissent took advantage, and the result is that Bismarck humiliated the French.

With Napoleon at hand, it will be possible to defeat a united Germany in a single stroke rather than occupying multiple states and making peace with each of them.

so you assume a united HRE (including prussia) would still use the same tactics in their battles, use the same commanders, same military tech and such, and allow the french to push in?...you assume their foreign relations would still be the same with Russia, Great Britian and so on?...you assume that everything will still be there to allow Napoleons victories with nothing changing?

Napoleon may have beign a great general, but even he couldnt have turned the tide against a united german front, which would have a much better, and unified, military, let alone all the other stuff that would have changed (using the franco-prussian war as a example doesnt make sense, as it takes place in a world where it was just the french v prussians, not the french v all of central europe)
 
so you assume a united HRE (including prussia) would still use the same tactics in their battles, use the same commanders, same military tech and such, and allow the french to push in?...you assume their foreign relations would still be the same with Russia, Great Britian and so on?...you assume that everything will still be there to allow Napoleons victories with nothing changing?

Napoleon may have beign a great general, but even he couldnt have turned the tide against a united german front, which would have a much better, and unified, military, let alone all the other stuff that would have changed (using the franco-prussian war as a example doesnt make sense, as it takes place in a world where it was just the french v prussians, not the french v all of central europe)

Just a nitpick; During the Franco-Prussian War, the Prussians also had the aid of the South German states, which does come out to most of Central Europe (at least, most of the German Confederation).
 
so you assume a united HRE (including prussia) would still use the same tactics in their battles, use the same commanders, same military tech and such, and allow the french to push in?...you assume their foreign relations would still be the same with Russia, Great Britian and so on?...you assume that everything will still be there to allow Napoleons victories with nothing changing?

Napoleon may have beign a great general, but even he couldnt have turned the tide against a united german front, which would have a much better, and unified, military, let alone all the other stuff that would have changed (using the franco-prussian war as a example doesnt make sense, as it takes place in a world where it was just the french v prussians, not the french v all of central europe)

Simply yes. And in fact, in the first coalition war against Napoleon, he indeed faced armies from all over Europe.

Plus, the name of the Franco-Prussian war is misleading. Even the southern Catholic German states contributed to the Prussian war effort, that the combined German armies actually outnumber the French.
 

Free Lancer

Banned
I would have to say that it would be a boon for Napoleon in considerations that my opinion was the multiple german nations that he had keep attention on that were ready to dog pile him the moment he turned his back was quite a problem to him.
 
I would have to say that it would be a boon for Napoleon in considerations that my opinion was the multiple german nations that he had keep attention on that were ready to dog pile him the moment he turned his back was quite a problem to him.

So instead he has one powerful German state that would happily jump on him like Austria did OTL. Not really an improvement.
 

Free Lancer

Banned
So instead he has one powerful German state that would happily jump on him like Austria did OTL. Not really an improvement.

If you look at that way, one German state is much easier to keep down then five or seven smaller ones, to two much more powerful ones, and even in the considerations of a united German state in the early stages i still will place my bet on Napoleon.

Of course this is my speculation that this would still follow a Napoleon victory.
 
If you look at that way, one German state is much easier to keep down then five or seven smaller ones, to two much more powerful ones, and even in the considerations of a united German state in the early stages i still will place my bet on Napoleon.

Of course this is my speculation that this would still follow a Napoleon victory.

One powerful state is a lot harder to keep down than several weak states. Having multiple armies to face is better than one united army, because those armies don't share a common command structure, for instance.
 

Free Lancer

Banned
One powerful state is a lot harder to keep down than several weak states. Having multiple armies to face is better than one united army, because those armies don't share a common command structure, for instance.

Of course, my measure of one Germane state being easier to keep down is based on Napoleons military mind, i'm concurring that he can and or will beat a united German state and make adequate measures in making sure that this state will be properly subdued and passive.

Also im theorizing that if that does happen it will do so in the early stages of the wars when Napoleon was still a newcomer to Europe's various militaries so his military mind set will be the more powerful in the campaign to subdue or defeat a United German state, because keep in mind they will still be utilizing same tactics and logistics in the broader military frame work.
 
Of course, my measure of one Germane state being easier to keep down is based on Napoleons military mind, i'm concurring that he can and or will beat a united German state and make adequate measures in making sure that this state will be properly subdued and passive.

Also im theorizing that if that does happen it will do so in the early stages of the wars when Napoleon was still a newcomer to Europe's various militaries so his military mind set will be the more powerful in the campaign to subdue or defeat a United German state, because keep in mind they will still be utilizing same tactics and logistics in the broader military frame work.

He can certainly try to make such measures, but again, look at Austria. Now imagine that on a larger scale. :eek:

And I'm not sure what style a united HRE/Germany would use - it has neither Prussia or Austria's OTL problems.
 

Free Lancer

Banned
He can certainly try to make such measures, but again, look at Austria. Now imagine that on a larger scale. :eek:

And I'm not sure what style a united HRE/Germany would use - it has neither Prussia or Austria's OTL problems.

In the theory comparing the OTL to this ATL in the fact of a United German state, i don't foresee any major changes to most of the military frame work, in terms of numerical, to command the change would be clear, but in logistics to infrastructure is something i can only speculate on.
 
In the theory comparing the OTL to this ATL in the fact of a United German state, i don't foresee any major changes to most of the military frame work, in terms of numerical, to command the change would be clear, but in logistics to infrastructure is something i can only speculate on.

The problem is that not all armies were the same, so . . .
 
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