Napoleon with Egypt

OK, I am reading Juan Cole's "Napoleon's Egypt", and I have to write a 6-7 size paper as to why the French Invasion failed-I am half way through the book and already I can forsee Napoleopn's own OTL rise in France-but I think I also see possible ways to turn things around and create a Napoleonic Egypt.

My current Hyptothesis for this would be to correct the following:
1:Get the Bedouin tribes under better control/exterminate them effectivly
2.Caputre Ibraham Bey and the Ottoman Pasha, and the hoards of treasury they OTL escaped with=Napoleon can pay his troops and egyptians better so less looting and pillaging and with Bey and the Pasha more leverage.
3.Napoleon does ""convert"" (I use that loosely based on Napoleon's/Republican-Liber-France's views on religion) to Islam leading to at least better favor with the Muslim population (and the lil m in French deism becoming accepted).
4.Curbs or lessens the number of Coptics he puts into high positions-a mix of Muslim and Coptic.
5. So distraught and so emotionally unstable due to Josephenie's affairs Napoleon takes a somewhat spiteful attitude toward his wife (angry love) and his suspicions that the Directory only sent him to Egypt to weaken his position and that eventually he would be a target for assasination (which he would be OTL).
6.Napoleon declares his self for the Beyship of Egypt under the Ottomans. There-go combined with Nelson's blockade cuts him off from France and threatens the British blockade as being against the Ottomans. I felt that instead of allying with Russia (of course the Russians would backstab the Turks-eventually) Selim the Third uses Napoleon (and Western Tactics-he was at the time trying to create himself a "New Army") and the army loyal to him.


Let see thats what I have so far. Any thoughts? EDIT: I should say that as I get things fleshed out I'll make a timeline
 
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There is no real way to deal with the Beduin - also, it doesn't seem likely that the Ottomans would take seriously Napoleon's declarations of loyalty to the empire, but if he did convert to Islam and join the Ottoman Empire, it's hard to predict what would happen. If Napoleon was serious, that would certainly make an interesting partnership. But I have to wonder what the impact of this would be on the French troops he had with him.
 
If you want a Muslim / Egyptian point of view you might want to look Napoleon in Egypt: Al Jabarti's Chronicle of the French Occupation, 1798

In short I don't see Napoleon doing a conversion or the Ottomans or Egyptians taking it seriously if he did. His troops attitude and the way he tried to rule Egypt ticked people off just too much.

Michael
 
Get the French fleet to anchor better in Aboukir Bay so the British can't enfilade them from both sides

Don't denude the fleet of its best gunners, giving them even less chance against Nelson

Basically, IMHO his main problem was seapower - the siege of Acre failed mainly due to Sir Sidney Smith's control of the sea

Egypt survived in his rear, whatever its problems. It was only after his departure, that Abercromby won at Aboukir, and only British seapower that allowed such a descent to occur

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
1:Get the Bedouin tribes under better control/exterminate them effectivly
2.Caputre Ibraham Bey and the Ottoman Pasha, and the hoards of treasury they OTL escaped with=Napoleon can pay his troops and egyptians better so less looting and pillaging and with Bey and the Pasha more leverage.
3.Napoleon does ""convert"" (I use that loosely based on Napoleon's/Republican-Liber-France's views on religion) to Islam leading to at least better favor with the Muslim population (and the lil m in French deism becoming accepted).
4.Curbs or lessens the number of Coptics he puts into high positions-a mix of Muslim and Coptic.
5. So distraught and so emotionally unstable due to Josephenie's affairs Napoleon takes a somewhat spiteful attitude toward his wife (angry love) and his suspicions that the Directory only sent him to Egypt to weaken his position and that eventually he would be a target for assasination (which he would be OTL).
6.Napoleon declares his self for the Beyship of Egypt under the Ottomans. There-go combined with Nelson's blockade cuts him off from France and threatens the British blockade as being against the Ottomans. I felt that instead of allying with Russia (of course the Russians would backstab the Turks-eventually) Selim the Third uses Napoleon (and Western Tactics-he was at the time trying to create himself a "New Army") and the army loyal to him.


Let see thats what I have so far. Any thoughts?

I have thought about this several times but have never been able to make it work. The problems Nappy faced were extreme and in the most part unacknowledged. The French kept assuming everything would work out fine if this one problem was sorted then acting surprised when a new problem came up.

The invasion force was essentially living on its capital, financial, political, diplomatic,military and most important manpower. There was no chance of transplanting French culture/civilization/government the way they expected. The only chance for success was for everything to go right (Nelson screws up Aboukir bay, Ottomans are distracted elsewhere, French really lucky and manage to hold down Egypt) and if that had happened Nappy would have followed his destiny and marched off to die in Persian deserts on the way to India (or conquer Constantinople depending which of his letters you read). That would have left Egypt as a rebellious and poverty sticken appendage to his empire.

To be specific
1. control the bedoin ? You have to be joking.
2. Yes this would have helped with his futile pretence of legitemacy but the French army was designed to pillage root and branch and could not have been changed.
3. This would have made things worse. The Egyptians hated the French regardless of religion and the one French officer who did convert (what was he called?) in order to marry was treated very badly by his comrades.
4. One of the major problems the French had was the locals had no concept of representative government. Any individual or group of egyptians asked for an opinion or required to run things just bounced the request back saying what do you want us to say or do. More muslins would not have broken that deadlock.
5. I don't understand this point. Napoleon had his mistress when he was in Egypt (whose name I also forget) but she had no effect on his actions and I am not sure what difference Josephine would have made.
6. NO ottoman is going to even consider this unless he hads been compleatly defeated militarily in which case Constantinople is a better prize.

I wondered about a different Ottoman Ruler in Syria but even then turning Egypt into The French USA as Nappy wanted was just impossible.
 
Well, even after his return to Paris and assumption of power Napoleon was hoping to reinforce Egypt, and this was definitely a British worry and pre-occupation so finite manpower is not an absolute problem

IMHO that again comes down to seapower - reinforcements and supplies can't get there if the British fleet sits in the way, or it CAN but its a high risk

- - -

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
5. I don't understand this point. Napoleon had his mistress when he was in Egypt (whose name I also forget) but she had no effect on his actions and I am not sure what difference Josephine would have made.

Juan Cole for all purposes makes it out in the book that Napoleon Looooves Josehphine even going so far-Napoleon believed but didn't want to believe that she was having her affairs and evenbefore he left he was worried what she would do and wanted her with him. Looking at this I take Josephine as Napoleon's mental-stability weakness-therego any fall out with her would have drastic effects on Napoleon (Depression, anger, resentment etc etc) and could help entrench him in staying in Egypt.

Edit: As for turning Egypt into a French USA oh quite impossible -at least not for a couple generations of French rule maybe-. What would be in effect would be a Military dictatorship with the impression on the Egyptians that Napoleon was just another Bey-Converting to Islam -Napoleon was really stressing that he respected Islam and was NOT a crusader- and having the treasury and political legitamacy-coming from capturing Bey and trying to join the Ottomans.
 
It would be interesting if he did capture Ibraham Bey and the Ottoman Pasha, with their treasury, without changing anything else. Once Napoleon leaves Egypt (I for one firmly believe he went to Egypt for domestic reasons and never had any serious intention of launching his Alexander-the-Great imitation), the Ottomans have direct control of Egypt. That would have some more serious knock-on effects for European history, if only because with Egypt as a directly ruled territory it can't really become any European powers' protectorate. I think that Egypt would be viewed as a piece of Ottoman territory that couldn't be sheared off the Empire without a partition of the whole Empire.

What kinds of effects would direct control of Egypt post-1800 have for the Ottoman Empire?
 
4. One of the major problems the French had was the locals had no concept of representative government. Any individual or group of egyptians asked for an opinion or required to run things just bounced the request back saying what do you want us to say or do. More muslins would not have broken that deadlock..

In an otherwise sensible post, this point is really bizarre. The Egyptians perfectly well understood representation, it's just that they were also perfectly aware any French institution of it was a fig leaf over a military autocracy, and weren't buying it. Representative institutions worked perfectly well when instituted by the Ottomans just a few years later.
 
Well, even after his return to Paris and assumption of power Napoleon was hoping to reinforce Egypt, and this was definitely a British worry and pre-occupation so finite manpower is not an absolute problem

IMHO that again comes down to seapower - reinforcements and supplies can't get there if the British fleet sits in the way, or it CAN but its a high risk

- - -

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

You're still left with an occupation attempting to rule over a hostile population with an inadequate technological and economic advantage in a situation where the occupying power has no legitimacy, both in the eyes of the populace and among the Powers. This is simply not a tenable position to be in.

Contrast this with Algeria where France did have recognition of its occupation, had a more favorable economic lead, and secure proximity to France - it took 25 years and enormous bloodshed and expenditure of resources to subdue Algeria.

The only mitigating factor is that Egypt is easier to occupy given almost the entire population lives in a river valley - but it is also easier for rebels to be supplied by outside powers, and there is an implacably hostile neighbor with a legitimate claim to Egypt, both in the international area and in the eyes of the Egyptians, at least in potential.
 
In an otherwise sensible post, this point is really bizarre. The Egyptians perfectly well understood representation, it's just that they were also perfectly aware any French institution of it was a fig leaf over a military autocracy, and weren't buying it. Representative institutions worked perfectly well when instituted by the Ottomans just a few years later.


My appologies. I intended no insult to the Egyptian people. My data comes mostly from French and British sources with the predictable bias. Perhaps I should have said the various Egyptian groups were unwilling to work with the French to govern the country in the way the French expected?:eek:
 
You're still left with an occupation attempting to rule over a hostile population with an inadequate technological and economic advantage in a situation where the occupying power has no legitimacy, both in the eyes of the populace and among the Powers. This is simply not a tenable position to be in.

Contrast this with Algeria where France did have recognition of its occupation, had a more favorable economic lead, and secure proximity to France - it took 25 years and enormous bloodshed and expenditure of resources to subdue Algeria.

The only mitigating factor is that Egypt is easier to occupy given almost the entire population lives in a river valley - but it is also easier for rebels to be supplied by outside powers, and there is an implacably hostile neighbor with a legitimate claim to Egypt, both in the international area and in the eyes of the Egyptians, at least in potential.

Well, I was kind of putting it forward as a prerequisite

Seemed to me that being able to land reinforcements and get supplies in was really the foundation of any enterprise to create a French Egypt

If you look at what was achieved, then lost, it seems to me (IMVHO etc) that all the achievements pretty much come to nothing if you can't begin to build on them

I mean, what point establishing a functioning administration better than OTL if you still can't keep your army supplied and are at the mercy of any enemy intervention ?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
That's a good point.

But even later, when the British had nearly incontestable naval access to Egypt and a larger technological and economic edge than was the case in 1800, it was found necessary to control Egypt through the native administration other than attempt the hopeless task of administering it directly.

Napoleon didn't really have that option since the native regime of his time was too weak and chaotic whereas the British had access to the centralized and stable system that had been developed in the interim.

Well, I was kind of putting it forward as a prerequisite

Seemed to me that being able to land reinforcements and get supplies in was really the foundation of any enterprise to create a French Egypt

If you look at what was achieved, then lost, it seems to me (IMVHO etc) that all the achievements pretty much come to nothing if you can't begin to build on them

I mean, what point establishing a functioning administration better than OTL if you still can't keep your army supplied and are at the mercy of any enemy intervention ?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
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