Napoleon III and Bismarck

As my interest in the Victorian Age grows, I am wondering if anyone has an opinion theyd like to share on these two great men? Bismarck and Louis Napoleon that is.

I am not really asking for a compare and contrast- rather a criticism of one (or both); because I think it would be difficult to actually fairly compare the two (but go for it if you want). I am interested because I am trying to form my own opinion based off what little resources I have on both men.
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Bismarck was a canny manipulator, a douchebag, and set up a state riddled with issues, some of which were legacies of Prussia, some of which were problems with him personally (the position of the chancellor is really, really messed up).

Good politician, bad man, and not quite as good a statesman as he's credited with.
 
Good politician, bad man, and not quite as good a statesman as he's credited with.

Are you hinting at the Militarism and conseravtive order that dominated the new Germany?

And what do you think would have happened had Bismarck not had his hand in specifically the unification process?
 
Are you hinting at the Militarism and conseravtive order that dominated the new Germany?

And what do you think would have happened had Bismarck not had his hand in specifically the unification process?

Pretty much. German diplomacy is excruciatingly terrible for multiple reasons, but the militarism is a major problem. There's too little compromise and too much desire to have things Germany's way no matter what.

And I'm not sure - Bismarck wasn't particularly bad here for what he was, but I'm rather anti-Junker.
 
Pretty much. German diplomacy is excruciatingly terrible for multiple reasons, but the militarism is a major problem. There's too little compromise and too much desire to have things Germany's way no matter what.

And I'm not sure - Bismarck wasn't particularly bad here for what he was, but I'm rather anti-Junker.

I'm not a large fan of the whole Junker thing either.

But I learned from schooling that Germany -or Bismarck rather- lead in the field of Foreign Diplomacy up until Wilhelm II goes and messes things up.
 
I'm not a large fan of the whole Junker thing either.

But I learned from schooling that Germany -or Bismarck rather- lead in the field of Foreign Diplomacy up until Wilhelm II goes and messes things up.

The distinction between Bismarck and no Bismarck is telling, but its not just Wilhelm being a dummy. Directly, at least.
 
The distinction between Bismarck and no Bismarck is telling, but its not just Wilhelm being a dummy. Directly, at least.

Would you mind pointing out some details? I'm not trying to be a smart alec, I'm generally in the dark about the foreign policy of Germany up until WWI.
 
Bismark was the lucky son of a bitch who happened to be at the right place at the right time. He's no more than diplomatic genius that he's far too often portrayed as, here and in the non-AH world, than I am the Queen of England :p

Likewise Louis-Napoléon deserves far more credit for the good he did for France than the alternating depictions as him as either a mad tyrant or a bumbling fool.
 
Thank you. Are you saying that Bismarck set the trend for such behavior? I thought he wanted to be buddy-buddy with Britain?

No. But the way he set up the organization of the Reich made it easier, unintentionally.

I was using this as an example of post-Bismarck diplomacy being irredeemably incompetent, mostly.
 
Bismark was the lucky son of a bitch who happened to be at the right place at the right time. He's no more than diplomatic genius that he's far too often portrayed as, here and in the non-AH world, than I am the Queen of England :p

Likewise Louis-Napoléon deserves far more credit for the good he did for France than the alternating depictions as him as either a mad tyrant or a bumbling fool.

The problem is that someone who wasn't able to take advantage of it wouldn't have been...able to take advantage of it (being at the right place at the right time).

In the Prussian tradition, he had opportunities - but he also played the game well.
 
Domestically, I think Nap III gets off well, but his foreign adventures were disastrous and what ended up making him look like a fool in retrospect.

How did Bismarck do as far as his internal policy?
 
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Bismark is the magnificent bastard. He's a magnificent manipulator, and a right bastard. He was removed mainly because he wanted to crush the socialists in Germany, not out of any idiocy of the Kaiser's, and his whole foreign policy was 'Punch anyone out who threatens us.'

He unified Germany in what could be argued is the worst way possible. He totally left out the Austrians, made the French resent him for the annexation of Alsace-Lorraine, and the way it was achieved left no room for liberalization in his time.

That said, he's still a smart person, and did unify Germany, despite the above. He kept peace in Europe, for a time, though I doubt it would have lasted even if he was still Chancellor. All in all, not treated negatively enough in modern times.

Louis Napoleon on the other hand, is not treated well enough. Compared to the Republican government, he prevented colonization of Algeria, not wanting to just plop Frenchmen in native land. He renovated Paris, turning it from a slum city to the architectural wonder it is today by hiring that Baron guy whose name I forget. And he gained Savoy and Nice for France, and helped unify Italy as a bonus to that.

He was also too superstitious for his own good. The only reason he didn't invade Prussia during the Austro-Prussian War was because he had a kidney stone or something like some night, which he saw as a bad sign, and cancelled the invasion. He also had a habit of getting into grand schemes in an attempt to ape the first Napoleon, like the whole Mexican adventure, and even entertaining the idea of recognizing the CSA.

All in all, Napoleon III did a lot of good domestically for France, but on foreign affairs he was a very mixed bag.
 
Bismark is the magnificent bastard. He's a magnificent manipulator, and a right bastard. He was removed mainly because he wanted to crush the socialists in Germany, not out of any idiocy of the Kaiser's, and his whole foreign policy was 'Punch anyone out who threatens us.'

He unified Germany in what could be argued is the worst way possible. He totally left out the Austrians, made the French resent him for the annexation of Alsace-Lorraine, and the way it was achieved left no room for liberalization in his time.

Except that there were reasons for not including the Austrians, Bismarck opposed annexing Alsace-Loraine, and...its not as if he was unique for being anti-liberalization here.

Not to mention that his diplomatic policy had far more finesse than "punch out anyone who opposes us" and a grasp on the reality of Germany's situation.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like Bismarck, but let's stick with what he is responsible for rather than just treating Germany's screw ups as his alone.
 
I believe he is the source of WWI.

How do you blame Bismarck for WWI when the alliances that were made that lead to it occurred either despite his intentions or after he was no longer able to influence the situation?

That's like blaming the House of Orange for Napoleon I.
 
Except that there were reasons for not including the Austrians, Bismarck opposed annexing Alsace-Loraine, and...its not as if he was unique for being anti-liberalization here.

Not to mention that his diplomatic policy had far more finesse than "punch out anyone who opposes us" and a grasp on the reality of Germany's situation.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like Bismarck, but let's stick with what he is responsible for rather than just treating Germany's screw ups as his alone.
Even with the Austrian situation, he was more focused on raising Prussia above Germany, than actually uniting Germany. I'm sure if he wanted too, he could have split the Kaisertum Osterreich and absorbed Austria into GrossDeutschland, though that might be more of a fantasy scenario than anything based in reality.

I've heard of his opposition to annexation of A-L before, but did he really do everything he could have to stop it? I mean, German arms marched all the way to Paris after all, and I'm sure he could have convinced of a white peace in exchange for some colonial possessions. I don't know enough about the small details of the Franco-Prussian to really question you though, so I'll concede to that.

Really, the whole Pax Germanicus was based on Bismark's manipulations and German arms. Any actual calls for peace from Germany/Prussia would be rather hypocritical, considering that they just started three wars within a decade of one another.

You're right, I was being kind of harsh, but Bismark still gets too much love. Sure, he's a great leader, and I still like him a lot, but he did screw up a bunch of things.
 
Napoleon III's Interesting; I did not know Bismarck opposed the annexation.

This may be a bit of a tangent, but what do you all think would happen had Northern Germany united, while Southern Germany (Bavaria, Baden, etc.) either united seperately or stayed close to Austria?
 
This may be a bit of a tangent, but what do you all think would happen had Northern Germany united, while Southern Germany (Bavaria, Baden, etc.) either united separately or stayed close to Austria?
If North Germany does unite, it's practically inevitable that the South would join up with the North, either through force or diplomacy. The North's more industrialized, has more manpower, and has a much greater army than the south. Austria would be their only real protector, but as shown in OTL, Prussia can kick Austria's ass. Now if France intervenes, as said above, that could save such a Southern Confederation.
 
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