Could Napoleon Bonaparte have dismantled Prussia and the Austrian Empire ? At what point in history was this most achievavble.
Sorry if this has been mulled over before.
Sorry if this has been mulled over before.
Napoleon I
- Thread starter victoria944
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What's the point? It might help France in the very short term but Great Britain has money they are excited and eager and willing to burn on fighting Napoleon for decades. Either Great Britain's free cash + fear of Napoleon will get someone to attack France or Napoleon's personality will compel him to start up another war.
Without changing Napoleon's personality (as Endresen suggests doing) then he won't destroy the Holy Roman Empire. If he does destroy the HRE then he's screwed in the medium term and you've fundamentally changed Napoleon's personality for all the massive butterflies that result from his new set of actions and beliefs. He wouldn't be Napoleon as we know him.
What's the point? It might help France in the very short term but Great Britain has money they are excited and eager and willing to burn on fighting Napoleon for decades. Either Great Britain's free cash + fear of Napoleon will get someone to attack France or Napoleon's personality will compel him to start up another war.
Without changing Napoleon's personality (as Endresen suggests doing) then he won't destroy the Holy Roman Empire. If he does destroy the HRE then he's screwed in the medium term and you've fundamentally changed Napoleon's personality for all the massive butterflies that result from his new set of actions and beliefs. He wouldn't be Napoleon as we know him.
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After Austerlitz (1805), he has the option of wiping Austria off the map. Cut it into five republics, set up guillotines along the Danube and end the Habsburgs, whetever he wants. He didn't do so because he was looking forward to hypothetical sons being accepted as legitimate Emperors, and understood that would not happen if he ended the HRE spectacularly violently. If you get a Napoleon who is content to be Alexander, and leave his Empire to the strongest...poor Austria.
Prussia...was one state among several at the time. What exactly do you need/want to do with it?
Prussia...was one state among several at the time. What exactly do you need/want to do with it?
Great Britain's money is not unlimited, although it is deep. A fair bit of luck was involved in keeping it together for the peninsular campaign as is, and it took them 25 years to pay off.
Also, if there's no Austria anymore, the only power left that can project force into France is Russia. Even if Nappy doesn't invade them, Spain's looking basketcaselike. And Russia are a tough sell for that kind of thing.
Also, if there's no Austria anymore, the only power left that can project force into France is Russia. Even if Nappy doesn't invade them, Spain's looking basketcaselike. And Russia are a tough sell for that kind of thing.
At the UKs rate of financing versus France's rate of financing? Essentially unlimited, if they have the political will. Heck the UK is still paying interest on Napoleonic War debts (it's cheaper than buying back the bonds) although they did skip out on their WWI debts.
Even if Napoleon chopped up Austria his OTL Empire was somewhat overextended. Give it a couple years and there's half a dozen German states raring to defeat Napoleon and claim preeminence in Germany. And, of course, there's the UK sitting there untouchable.
Russia gets to have domination of Germany without interference if they can defeat France. They'd make a move.
If you want a super-Napoleonic French Empire that survives then you have to change Napoleon's personality or kill him at the right time.
Killing him earlier (before the Russian campaign) is certainly the easiest way to do it, but I think it still be done given his OTL lifespan. The number of people willing to invade France for revenge once Nappy himself is no longer on the throne is...well, I can't think of anyone save the Bourbons themselves, and no one's listening to them.
Ok here's my Napoleon I. Briefly .... many epiphany's later
He doesn't declare himself Emperor, and doesn't get caught up in trying be accepted, respected by other Monarchs. He remains a republican, and not an empire builder. Just for arguments sake.
He doesn't annex the Rhineland ( This becomes part of a German Federation ), He doesn't annexe the Batavian Republic, he doesn't
annexe any of the Italian terretories, sets up an Italian Republic - as he did - but including the terretories he annexed. And he never get's involved in Spain. Also see's the foolhardyness of the Continental system and never implements it.
So this is a Napoleon that, rather than antagonise German and Italian national sentiment's he respects it. He skillfully does what he can to build states, that have a vested interest in preventing Austria, Prussia, and Russia from reinstituting the old order.
This the sisuation by 1808.
Unsure however as to the situation regarding Sweden, vis a vis Denmark getting Norway, Swedish disatifaction - also the question of Finland.
How much more satiated is German Nationalism now, to what extent does dismantling Prussia affect this.
Can he give Pomerania to Sweden ?, with a secret offer of Finland and the Russian Baltic territories to Sweden in a future war with Russia.
Possibly unthinkable, - but i'll throw it into the ring. Can he give Prussia to Poland. Set up an independent Bohemia Moravia - possibly including Silesia. The remains of Prussia is then amalgamated in to the German Federation - capital Hannover ?.
How about an independent Hungary, including present day slovakia, Italy recieve the Dalmatian coast. He disregards the Pope, and give Rome to the Italian Republic - which becomes it's capital, and proceeds to take southern Italy and Sicily adding them to the Italian Republic.
Does he have more or less trouble on his hands now, with three large nationaly constructed republics, Italy, German Federation, Republic of Hungary. Can they be reliable allies or is it going to dissolve into internecine chaos.
He doesn't declare himself Emperor, and doesn't get caught up in trying be accepted, respected by other Monarchs. He remains a republican, and not an empire builder. Just for arguments sake.
He doesn't annex the Rhineland ( This becomes part of a German Federation ), He doesn't annexe the Batavian Republic, he doesn't
annexe any of the Italian terretories, sets up an Italian Republic - as he did - but including the terretories he annexed. And he never get's involved in Spain. Also see's the foolhardyness of the Continental system and never implements it.
So this is a Napoleon that, rather than antagonise German and Italian national sentiment's he respects it. He skillfully does what he can to build states, that have a vested interest in preventing Austria, Prussia, and Russia from reinstituting the old order.
This the sisuation by 1808.
Unsure however as to the situation regarding Sweden, vis a vis Denmark getting Norway, Swedish disatifaction - also the question of Finland.
How much more satiated is German Nationalism now, to what extent does dismantling Prussia affect this.
Can he give Pomerania to Sweden ?, with a secret offer of Finland and the Russian Baltic territories to Sweden in a future war with Russia.
Possibly unthinkable, - but i'll throw it into the ring. Can he give Prussia to Poland. Set up an independent Bohemia Moravia - possibly including Silesia. The remains of Prussia is then amalgamated in to the German Federation - capital Hannover ?.
How about an independent Hungary, including present day slovakia, Italy recieve the Dalmatian coast. He disregards the Pope, and give Rome to the Italian Republic - which becomes it's capital, and proceeds to take southern Italy and Sicily adding them to the Italian Republic.
Does he have more or less trouble on his hands now, with three large nationaly constructed republics, Italy, German Federation, Republic of Hungary. Can they be reliable allies or is it going to dissolve into internecine chaos.
Sorry if this confuses things, but i dont know if it should be a new thread altogether.
Not wishing to disregard the above post, but has anyone covered what happens if Robespierre handles his allies and enemies better, is able to rally
enough forces to defeat the Convention and Barer, Fouche ( july 1794 )
and then, calls on his friend Napoleon Bonaparte to take charge of some emergency period of national survival. Giving Napoleon full reign to reform the army, basically putting him in charge.
If robespierre survives and beats the convention, he has to do something,
napoleon is one of a few reliable, militarialy knowledgeable close friends he has. No thermidor, napoleon has someone to contain him, but is also free to be the military genius he was.
Not wishing to disregard the above post, but has anyone covered what happens if Robespierre handles his allies and enemies better, is able to rally
enough forces to defeat the Convention and Barer, Fouche ( july 1794 )
and then, calls on his friend Napoleon Bonaparte to take charge of some emergency period of national survival. Giving Napoleon full reign to reform the army, basically putting him in charge.
If robespierre survives and beats the convention, he has to do something,
napoleon is one of a few reliable, militarialy knowledgeable close friends he has. No thermidor, napoleon has someone to contain him, but is also free to be the military genius he was.
189 he offered the crown of Hungary to Prince Esterhazy, and if it had been accepted it would have torn the Habsburg dominions in two. Don't forget that he had ALREADY given Tyrol to Bavaria, and taken Illyria for France, so he is certainly not that worried about tearing Austria (sic) apart
As for Prussia, its Rhineland/Westphalian lands were also ripped from it, forming such states as Berg instead.
What the question really is is regarding the cores of these countries - once you've ripped Prussia apart for instance, what do you do with Brandenburg? The OTL solution was to do nothing and let it continue to call itself Prussia
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
As for Prussia, its Rhineland/Westphalian lands were also ripped from it, forming such states as Berg instead.
What the question really is is regarding the cores of these countries - once you've ripped Prussia apart for instance, what do you do with Brandenburg? The OTL solution was to do nothing and let it continue to call itself Prussia
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
Whats to stop Napoleon giving
Galicia and Bukovina to the Dutchy of Warsaw.
Regardless, he could have set up an independent Hungaria Kingdom.
Galicia and Bukovina to the Dutchy of Warsaw.
Regardless, he could have set up an independent Hungaria Kingdom.
I Blame Communism
Banned
What was the situation after Austerlitz? Was Napoleon Master of the Universe?
There were 80,000 men under Archduke Charles to the east who Napoleon wasted no time in considering and planning for even after he had won at Austerlitz; the Prussians were mobilising, and had they joined the war they could have unlocked the coalition's troops in northern Germany and endangered the French lines of communication. And of course, with a fine army and plenty of manpower reserves and at this point hardly more invadeable than Britain, there loomed Russia.
And what of this "establishing republic on the Danube"? It's not as easy as declaring, from Vienna, that Hungary - where there are Hapsburg officials, Hapsburg courts, Hapsburg troops under arms - is independent and various important people there are to be guillotined. And who exactly is going to run, saw, Bohemia? An aristocracy that was almost entirely Germanised and integrated into Hapsburgdom?
Napoleon had won two smashing victories, captured Vienna, humiliated Austria, and was in a position to make a highly advantageous peace. Why should he chuck that all up by taking every possible measure to guarantee that the Austrians will fight on through thick and thin?
Prussia, now, Prussia is probably doable.
There were 80,000 men under Archduke Charles to the east who Napoleon wasted no time in considering and planning for even after he had won at Austerlitz; the Prussians were mobilising, and had they joined the war they could have unlocked the coalition's troops in northern Germany and endangered the French lines of communication. And of course, with a fine army and plenty of manpower reserves and at this point hardly more invadeable than Britain, there loomed Russia.
And what of this "establishing republic on the Danube"? It's not as easy as declaring, from Vienna, that Hungary - where there are Hapsburg officials, Hapsburg courts, Hapsburg troops under arms - is independent and various important people there are to be guillotined. And who exactly is going to run, saw, Bohemia? An aristocracy that was almost entirely Germanised and integrated into Hapsburgdom?
Napoleon had won two smashing victories, captured Vienna, humiliated Austria, and was in a position to make a highly advantageous peace. Why should he chuck that all up by taking every possible measure to guarantee that the Austrians will fight on through thick and thin?
Prussia, now, Prussia is probably doable.
Well prior to 1812 Napoleon is in a pretty powerful position, look at what has happened, the most powerful sttates in Europe have consistently had to parly with them I dont think its unreleastic for him to break up Austria.
O.K theres resistance, a new - different war, but hes likely to win.
O.K theres resistance, a new - different war, but hes likely to win.
informationfan
Banned
hi,
anything napoleon did (or will do in this timeline) is destroyed after his defeat. If this is in 1815 or 1820 doesn´t matter.. he can destroy prussia, austria, but his empire will not survive, countries that get parts of other nations have to give back, cause of the balance of power... we had this discussion about a large poland... if done by napoleon it will be crushed the second he is beated.
you can´t change the time completly (or you are in asb).
shorttime the destruction of austria could improve napoleons situation, but every nation will fight him... napoleon destroyed prussia, just look at his peace conditions in 1807/8... no, this do not help him in the long term
nappi is doomed
anything napoleon did (or will do in this timeline) is destroyed after his defeat. If this is in 1815 or 1820 doesn´t matter.. he can destroy prussia, austria, but his empire will not survive, countries that get parts of other nations have to give back, cause of the balance of power... we had this discussion about a large poland... if done by napoleon it will be crushed the second he is beated.
you can´t change the time completly (or you are in asb).
shorttime the destruction of austria could improve napoleons situation, but every nation will fight him... napoleon destroyed prussia, just look at his peace conditions in 1807/8... no, this do not help him in the long term
nappi is doomed