Napoleon I accepts the Frankfurt Proposals

[Remus Augustus]

What if, Napoleon saw the writing on the wall and agreed to the Frankfurt Proposals proposed by the 6th coalition?

My Theory:

Napoleon begins a massive industrialization campaign using France's massive population and the resources gained through the annexation of Belgium. By the time Napoleon I dies sometime in the 1830s (1836-1837 I think) France would have either surpassed Great Britain or reached parity with GB's industrial output.

Secondly, Napoleon II would have lived longer and never died of tuberculosis. Being raised by his father in France, he would have been educated in military theory by his Father and his Marshalls and been educated by some of the best tutors in the Empire. Napoleon II would have been molded into the splitting image of his father. By the time Napoleon I dies, Napoleon II would be in a prime position to fully utilize France's rebuilt economy and industrial might as well as an army that would be the most formidable force on the continent with the latest in military technology. (Repeating rifles, advanced rear loaded rifled artillery and a corps of battle hardened Marshalls.) Perhaps we might see a union between Napoleon II and Princess Victoria of Great Britain. (Just a thought) He might even be the first Great Power to officially recognize the Republic of Texas and it's claimed Territory.

By the time Prussia begins her wars to forge the German Empire, France would decisively defeat Prussian army- forcing it to focus on Austria. With a Franco- Austrian Alliance, (forged from familial relationships between Napoleon II and the Austrian Emperor) German states are divided between Austrian and French spheres of influence.

 

[El_Fodedor]

The only way for Napoleon II to have Victoria's hand is if he lands for the cerimony with an army.

The British were already uneasy about barely relevant Albert. How do u think they would react to the Bonaparte heir?

 

[Remus Augustus]

The only way for Napoleon II to have Victoria's hand is if he lands for the cerimony with an army.

The British were already uneasy about barely relevant Albert. How do u think they would react to the Bonaparte heir?

I agree. I only proposed it as an hypothetical. In all honesty, their is really only one nation that may accept a Bonaparte marrying into their royal family: Austria, due to his mother having been a Habsburg herself. You could make the case that Napoleon II might marry a Polish claimant to the throne to use as a claim for a future campaign.

 

[Slime_blob]

France's population imo practically would not have much pop and growth because growth knowing that where did most of the men go.

 

[isabella]

I agree. I only proposed it as an hypothetical. In all honesty, their is really only one nation that may accept a Bonaparte marrying into their royal family: Austria, due to his mother having been a Habsburg herself. You could make the case that Napoleon II might marry a Polish claimant to the throne to use as a claim for a future campaign.

Not really. Napoleon II would have a lot of choice among the German princesses for a bride at least Bavaria, Württemberg and Baden had already demonstrated willingness to marry in the extended family of Napoleon. For me Napoleon II will most likely marry either a German princess (unlikely to be an Habsburg as they had only girls from junior branches) or one of the daughters of Eugene de Beauharnais (who had royal blood and were much well connected on their maternal side)

 

[raharris1973]

Britain says 'just kidding' we're still at war?

 

[Remus Augustus]

By the end of 1812, France was the world's 3rd most populous nation with over 50 million, right behind the Qing Empire and the Maratha Empire. Additionally, with Napoleon I acting as an absolute monarch, one who made every decision personally (From the seemingly smallest local act to long term imperial decrees), Napoleon I would have begun constructing a nation wide rail network, and begin an nation wide industrialization campaign using the vast mineral deposits found in Belgium and near the Rhine (as Prussia/ German Empire did in OTL). By the time Napoleon II comes to power in the late 1830s or early 40s, France would be the undisputed power on the continent, with the strongest economy, most advanced land army her only real competition being Great Britain in terms of naval power and colonial possessions.

The question is:
How successfully could Napoleon I divert his attention from the battle field and focus on the civil needs of France with just as much success? (I think it's a no-brainer : the answer clearly yes.)

 

[funnyhat]

By the end of 1812, France was the world's 3rd most populous nation with over 50 million, right behind the Qing Empire and the Maratha Empire. Additionally, with Napoleon I acting as an absolute monarch, one who made every decision personally (From the seemingly smallest local act to long term imperial decrees), Napoleon I would have begun constructing a nation wide rail network, and begin an nation wide industrialization campaign using the vast mineral deposits found in Belgium and near the Rhine (as Prussia/ German Empire did in OTL). By the time Napoleon II comes to power in the late 1830s or early 40s, France would be the undisputed power on the continent, with the strongest economy, most advanced land army her only real competition being Great Britain in terms of naval power and colonial possessions.

The question is:
How successfully could Napoleon I divert his attention from the battle field and focus on the civil needs of France with just as much success? (I think it's a no-brainer : the answer clearly yes.)

Not 50 million people, but 30 million (or 35 with the full Rhine border).

 

[Remus Augustus]

Britain says 'just kidding' we're still at war?

The Frankfurt Proposals were approved by the participating nations of the 6th Coalition and it was sent to Napoleon knowing the Proposal forced Great Britain to accept 1) Napoleon staying in power, 2) Conceding that the continent of Europe militarily belonged to France while the Seas belonged to the Royal Navy, and finally forced GB to cease funding Coalition after Coalition due to having a Europe worn out by near constant war for over a decade using numbers that would not be surpassed until the Great War.

 

[Emperor Constantine]

Honestly, this is ASB. The Frankfurt proposal wasn't real; the Allies (or at least Russia, Prussia and Britain), had no intentions of allowing Napoléon to keep his throne or his Empire. In fact, all of the offers in 1813 were pretty much BS, and only existed to appease the Austrians (who were still allied with Napoléon and were concerned that they would be exposed if they switched sides too early).

 

[funnyhat]

Honestly, this is ASB. The Frankfurt proposal wasn't real; the Allies (or at least Russia, Prussia and Britain), had no intentions of allowing Napoléon to keep his throne or his Empire. In fact, all of the offers in 1813 were pretty much BS, and only existed to appease the Austrians (who were still allied with Napoléon and were concerned that they would be exposed if they switched sides too early).

They didn't like Napoléon, but had also been fighting France for 20 years and are becoming exhausted. They had some concerns about an invasion of France. I think it was possible for them to agree in principle with peace, but not on the OTL Frankfurt terms, which they thought were too generous.

The biggest problem is that the British would not accept French control of Antwerp - but Belgium is part of the "natural borders" and Napoléon faces political pressure at home to preserve them.

 

[Wendell]

They didn't like Napoléon, but had also been fighting France for 20 years and are becoming exhausted. They had some concerns about an invasion of France. I think it was possible for them to agree in principle with peace, but not on the OTL Frankfurt terms, which they thought were too generous.

The biggest problem is that the British would not accept French control of Antwerp - but Belgium is part of the "natural borders" and Napoléon faces political pressure at home to preserve them.

From Napoleon's point of view, it was also not reasonable to demand that France part with European territory secured before/in Amiens.

 

[Emperor Constantine]

They didn't like Napoléon, but had also been fighting France for 20 years and are becoming exhausted. They had some concerns about an invasion of France. I think it was possible for them to agree in principle with peace, but not on the OTL Frankfurt terms, which they thought were too generous.

The biggest problem is that the British would not accept French control of Antwerp - but Belgium is part of the "natural borders" and Napoléon faces political pressure at home to preserve them.

No, I mean it. They weren't a real offer. Read Rites of Peace: The Fall of Napoleon and the Congress of Vienna by Adam Zamoyski; the book makes it abundantly clear that the Allies would never make another false peace with Napoléon and had decided by the beginning of 1813 that he had to go. The only ally (who wasn't an ally yet) that had any real interest or hope in the negotiations was Metternich and Austria (who feared the possibility of Russo-Prussian dominance in Germany and eastern Europe).

 

[alexmilman]

Honestly, this is ASB. The Frankfurt proposal wasn't real; the Allies (or at least Russia, Prussia and Britain), had no intentions of allowing Napoléon to keep his throne or his Empire. In fact, all of the offers in 1813 were pretty much BS, and only existed to appease the Austrians (who were still allied with Napoléon and were concerned that they would be exposed if they switched sides too early).

Well, at this specific point the schema may work if Austria made its offer an ultimatum for both sides because Russian-Prussian coalition was not in a good condition to fight both Napoleon and Austria. Of course, Russia still had more new troops in training they would not compensate for a fresh Austrian army joining Napoleon after a number of the offsets the allies just suffered.

Then again, for Prussia this was a war of revenge on a national level but for Russia it was much less so, pretty much Alexander’s personal whim, because the revenge part was mostly satisfied by the end of 1812. So, whatever his personal feelings, he could accept the reality forcing Prussia to do the same. The British position would be pretty much irrelevant and both Russia and Prussia can claim certain glory for the domestic consumption.

But Austria ready to fight wholeheartedly on Nappy’s side in 1813 seems to be very close to ASB.

 

[alexmilman]

No, I mean it. They weren't a real offer. Read Rites of Peace: The Fall of Napoleon and the Congress of Vienna by Adam Zamoyski; the book makes it abundantly clear that the Allies would never make another false peace with Napoléon and had decided by the beginning of 1813 that he had to go. The only ally (who wasn't an ally yet) that had any real interest or hope in the negotiations was Metternich and Austria (who feared the possibility of Russo-Prussian dominance in Germany and eastern Europe).

But at the time of Frankfurt Metternich hold a trump card that could make the earlier decisions irrelevant: a fresh fully trained and equipped Austrian army.

 

[alexmilman]

They didn't like Napoléon, but had also been fighting France for 20 years and are becoming exhausted. They had some concerns about an invasion of France. I think it was possible for them to agree in principle with peace, but not on the OTL Frankfurt terms, which they thought were too generous.

The biggest problem is that the British would not accept French control of Antwerp - but Belgium is part of the "natural borders" and Napoléon faces political pressure at home to preserve them.

I really don’t see how this would be “the biggest problem” if Nappy makes an Austria-broken peace with Russia and Prussia. So the Brits would be unhappy and then what? They tried to take Antwerp under much more favorable circumstances and it did not end well. Without the continental partners they could do little.

 

[Vangogh]

I mean something akin to the frankfurt could be agreed upon. France would be set for eternity if they could have just settled for that and went back to the colonial game.

Bigger population. Better demographics and less men dying. More stable. Better diplomatic relations. Less glamorous stories but a better legacy.

Napoleon really just needs Austria, Prussia and Russia to agree. Britains role was mostly funding their wars against France.

 

[Boves]

I really don’t see how this would be “the biggest problem” if Nappy makes an Austria-broken peace with Russia and Prussia. So the Brits would be unhappy and then what? They tried to take Antwerp under much more favorable circumstances and it did not end well. Without the continental partners they could do little.

in Castlereagh's Foreign Policy, 1812-1815
Great Britain and the reconstruction of Europe
he asserts that if Napoleon had immediately accepted the basis of Frankfort's proposals, there can be no doubt that peace negotiations would have begun immediately. Absolute independence from Holland was stipulated, but its precise border, as well as the form of government, would be an issue discussion
instead napoleon made inappropriate demands and wasted time, and that was a big mistake,
but let's say napoleon dies in hanau on october 30 after all he was exposed to artillery fire during the battle, what do you think would have happened?
Would Metternich have made the same proposals?
Would Alexander have felt that his honor would be restored or would he continue to push towards Paris?

 

[Wendell]

in Castlereagh's Foreign Policy, 1812-1815
Great Britain and the reconstruction of Europe
he asserts that if Napoleon had immediately accepted the basis of Frankfort's proposals, there can be no doubt that peace negotiations would have begun immediately. Absolute independence from Holland was stipulated, but its precise border, as well as the form of government, would be an issue discussion
instead napoleon made inappropriate demands and wasted time, and that was a big mistake,
but let's say napoleon dies in hanau on october 30 after all he was exposed to artillery fire during the battle, what do you think would have happened?
Would Metternich have made the same proposals?
Would Alexander have felt that his honor would be restored or would he continue to push towards Paris?

I'll bite.

If Napoleon is killed in battle in 1812, the armies my collapse and all of this could well be moot. Assuming the army holds together, peace overtures are made and the Frankfurt proposals become the basis of the peace deal. Austria is on board as the Emperor of the French will be the grandson of the Austrian emperor. Alexander accepts with Napoleon dead and the promise of Poland. The former Kingdom of Holland is restored under the House of Orange. The Kingdom of Westphalia is abolished. Sardinia gets Piedmont and Parma. The Bourbon Parma get Etruria. The Veneto goes to Austria and Ancona and Umbria are returned with Latium to the pope. Lucca ad Piombino stay under Gabrielli. The remnants of the Kingdom of Italy go to Eugene de Beauharnais whose German lands are annexed to Wurzburg. The post-Luneville Austro-Bavarian border isrestored.

 

[funnyhat]

I really don’t see how this would be “the biggest problem” if Nappy makes an Austria-broken peace with Russia and Prussia. So the Brits would be unhappy and then what? They tried to take Antwerp under much more favorable circumstances and it did not end well. Without the continental partners they could do little.

The problem is that with the British still at war, the peace with the others may not last, as it did not after Campo Formio, Tilsit, etc. . The British may again subsidize nations to join a new coalition. To definitively end the war (which the French public is becoming impatient for) peace has to be made with London. That would also be the only way for France to get back some of the lost colonies.