Napoleon Guillotined for the Oriental Defeat
- Thread starter DMA
- Start date
And without the genius of Napoleon, the French Revolutionary Wars end with the victory of the Third or Fourth Coalition over the Consulate and the imposition of Louis XVII.
So what does the peace look like in 1804 or '05?
Valdemar II
Banned
Bigger Austria including "Belgium" and keeping the entire Austrian Poland, smaller Prussia in the West but with larger possesions in Poland, smaller Bavaria in the East but greater possesion in the west, Saxony stay big, Denmark keep Norway and Sweden keep Finland and Vorpommern, Switzerland is likely either annexed (likely by Austria) or made into a Kingdom, a lot of small German states survives.
Unlikely IMHO. Most of Napoleon's genius was the use of superb veteran armies and officer corp. Massena and Moreau would likely have done as good or better than Napoleon, given the same ressources. Certainly, their earlier campaigns compare to Napoleon's Italian one.
ABout the same as OTL, I would think; Maybe a bit more lenient to the coalition.
Susano
Banned
Well, by 1804 and 1805 the Rhineland had fallen to France already. That will be removed, but the interesting question now is who gets it... might still be Prussia actually, in return for setting Hannover free again. Damnit, why does Wiki not have teh 1803 and 1804 maps of Germany anymore? Ah, here, right of teh two maps: http://www.emersonkent.com/images/germany_italy_1803_1806.jpg
Yeah, Prussias gonna want compensation for Hannover, as Britain will demand it to be restored...
Hm. Such an alt-Congress of Vienna would be intersting. Of course, much would depend on how the German states side and hence wtehe rthey get rewarded or punished (see Saxony IOTL...).
Yeah, Prussias gonna want compensation for Hannover, as Britain will demand it to be restored...
Hm. Such an alt-Congress of Vienna would be intersting. Of course, much would depend on how the German states side and hence wtehe rthey get rewarded or punished (see Saxony IOTL...).
Without the total reordering of the European state system that Napoleon imposed with his military victories the peace that comes about once Revolutionary France has been defeated is going to look much different than the Congress of Vienna peace. There are going to be a lot more players at the peace table, with a lot more vested interests that would be fighting for attention. The peace-makers at Vienna were able to redraw the map of Europe in a way that would allow a stable balance of power system to emerge. They could do this because Napoleon swept away many of the smaller states, and in his long reign Napoleon redrew the map of Germany in a way that allowed the Vienna peacemakers to draw it again.
The success or failure of the Consulate is going to depend on whether or not one of the generals involved in the coup are able to turn the government into a one-man show. If one of the generals can't get themselves on top, then the further wars against the Coalition(s) are going to be hamstrung by domestic politics.
Napoleon was able to quickly sideline the other members of the Consulate. And thus he was able to make the homefront safe for himself while he engaged in war abroad. If the Consulate's generals are engaged in a more drawn out power struggle, then their going to have a difficult time effectively fighting while their worrying about whether or not they are protected in Paris.
The success or failure of the Consulate is going to depend on whether or not one of the generals involved in the coup are able to turn the government into a one-man show. If one of the generals can't get themselves on top, then the further wars against the Coalition(s) are going to be hamstrung by domestic politics.
Napoleon was able to quickly sideline the other members of the Consulate. And thus he was able to make the homefront safe for himself while he engaged in war abroad. If the Consulate's generals are engaged in a more drawn out power struggle, then their going to have a difficult time effectively fighting while their worrying about whether or not they are protected in Paris.
Susano
Banned
AH, wait, Prussi aoly got Hannover in teh War of the 3rd Coalition. That wont happen most likeley. Nevermidn my previous post then, heh. Probably there will indeed be no congress - since theres no Napoleon havingr eordered everything its probbly idneed just keeping everything as it is. So, 1803 Germany... plus somebody gets the Rhineland. Question is who...
Susano
Banned
They did nothing to earn it. Other powers will want it to and will have more pull to get it. Indeed, the Batavian Republic will probably be disestablished and replaced by the Kingdom of the Netherlands as IOTL (making Fulda free which probably as IOTL will fall to Hesse-Kassel), so that Kingdom will be not in any position to demand anything (again like IOTL, but there they gained the Southern Netherlands regardless as nobody wanted that land). One idea is, since Austria indeed doesnt actually want the Austrian Netherlands, to have the century old plan of Wittelsbach relocation going into effect now: Wittelsbach gains the west Rhenish territories including Austrian Netherlands (maybe excluding Cleves and Guelders going to Prussia), while Bavaria falls to Austria and Bavarian Franconia to Prussia. That works especially well if Bavaria continues to side with the French...
I really like this. Could we resurrect Lotharingia as the title of the new Austrian Netherlands-Rhinelands Kingdom? How would the culture difference between the Wallon and Flemish in former Austrian Netherlands and German Rhinelands work out?
Also, I assume that France gets left with 1789 borders, so they have the left bank of the Rhine- will the victors want to give the French-allied Wittelsbachs the right bank of the Rhine? I suppose the Wittelsbachs will have more motivation to be anti-French if they're next door- being the object of French territorial ambitions could have the effect.
If Lotharingia stays together, then could the Netherlands end up being swept up in a German unification? Lotharingia is going to have to be a part of a unified Germany, and the Netherlands would end up being surrounded by Germany. The Flemish population in the former Austrian Netherlands could end up seeing themselves as part of the German nation instead of developing their own nationalism- which could in turn influence the Netherlands to view themselves the same way.
Giving the Hapsburg more German territory is going to have some very, very serious knockon effects. The Kliendeutsch vs Grossdeutsch debate will certainly go a different way, with even more of the potential German nation under the Hapsburg's control. With more German territory, the Hapsburg might be willing to let go of their non-German territory in order to take the leadership of the Second Reich.
In OTL there were various schemes that were floated but never seriously pursued of splitting off different parts of the Hapsburg domain under cadet branches of the family. For instance Mexican Emperor Maximilian I was floated as a potential candidate for an Italian, Hungarian or Polish spin-off kingdom.
This could be pursued as a 19th century Hapsburg-wank. The Hapsburg, with more German territory, are willing to pursue a policy of greater German integration. Following the liberal revolutions in the mid-19th century the Kingdom of St. Stephen and Lombardy-Venetia are granted autonomy, with their own assemblies but with powerful, Vienna appointed Viceroys. This concession during the liberal revolution propels the Frankfurt Assembly to offer the Hapsburg Emperor the Imperial crown, with the caveat that the non-German territories must be made independent. The Hapsburg Emperor, having already granted autonomy to those territories, makes the leap and accepts the Imperial crown.
The Hapsburg now rule three different monarchies, the German Second Reich, the Kingdom of Lombardy (where the Lombard's Iron Crown has been resurrected), and the Kingdom of St. Stephen. The Hapsburg giant bestrides Europe like a collosus, from the Baltic to the Adriatic.
I might have gotten a little carried away.
Susano
Banned
Nah, Lotharingia doesnt work, as in German theres no difference between Lotahringia and Lorraine - its both Lothringen, and Lothringen (Lorraine) is a fixed regional term for somewhereelse, of course Eh, I guess Belgium is still appropriate, seeing the Roman province of Belgica stretched to Trier (even if most of Germania Inferior is also included and the south and west of Belgica isnt).
Uh, 1789 France has the left bank of the Rhine at the Alsace, not elsewhere. Ites exactly that left Bank that needs to go somewhere, hence Wittelsbach
Though the Alsace and Lorraine could serve some purpose, too. The Alsace could house all those dynasties that were compensated with land in NW Germany (Salm, Aremberg, Loo-Corswarem, Croy - not Bentheim, though, thats a traditional territory in the area) when the western Rhine bank fell to France, so that Prussia can absorb said lands in NW Germany and hence have a connection ebwteen Westphalia (Münster) and East Frisia. Hell, Salm comes from the Alsace... nd Lorraine, eh, Im partial towards a Habsbuirg secundogeniture there, in one of their ancestral lands, including Sundgau and Breisgau
And there wont be the same debatte about German unification, because legally-techncially, Germany still will be united, as the HREGN hasnt been abolished. Without France looking thretaening because of Napoleon, Austria will not assume the title of Emperorship (IOTL in 1804), nor disband the HREGN (IOTL in 1806), so the Austrian monarch still will be Holy Roman Emperor. Funny thing is with the ecclestial electorates knoocked out theres the faint possibility that in the next election actually somebody non-Habsburg is elected. Chances are slim, though, electing a Habsburg is too much tradition... but who knows, eventually that might change. There will certainly be nationalism-propelled debatte about how to centralise the HREGN into something thats actually, and not just de jure a state. Of course, such debattes will invariably have to include the Emperors lands, that is, Austria. It might even be Prussia thats especially annoyed by such discussions, as as a Great Power it surely wont have interest in being dominated by Austria...
Uh, 1789 France has the left bank of the Rhine at the Alsace, not elsewhere. Ites exactly that left Bank that needs to go somewhere, hence Wittelsbach
Though the Alsace and Lorraine could serve some purpose, too. The Alsace could house all those dynasties that were compensated with land in NW Germany (Salm, Aremberg, Loo-Corswarem, Croy - not Bentheim, though, thats a traditional territory in the area) when the western Rhine bank fell to France, so that Prussia can absorb said lands in NW Germany and hence have a connection ebwteen Westphalia (Münster) and East Frisia. Hell, Salm comes from the Alsace... nd Lorraine, eh, Im partial towards a Habsbuirg secundogeniture there, in one of their ancestral lands, including Sundgau and Breisgau And there wont be the same debatte about German unification, because legally-techncially, Germany still will be united, as the HREGN hasnt been abolished. Without France looking thretaening because of Napoleon, Austria will not assume the title of Emperorship (IOTL in 1804), nor disband the HREGN (IOTL in 1806), so the Austrian monarch still will be Holy Roman Emperor. Funny thing is with the ecclestial electorates knoocked out theres the faint possibility that in the next election actually somebody non-Habsburg is elected. Chances are slim, though, electing a Habsburg is too much tradition... but who knows, eventually that might change. There will certainly be nationalism-propelled debatte about how to centralise the HREGN into something thats actually, and not just de jure a state. Of course, such debattes will invariably have to include the Emperors lands, that is, Austria. It might even be Prussia thats especially annoyed by such discussions, as as a Great Power it surely wont have interest in being dominated by Austria...