Napoleon French Empire of 1811 still around in 1914 or late 1930's

Hi this timeframe and setting Napoleon I empire of 1811 is still around in 1914 to late 1930's,


Now in 1811 Napoleon didn't invade Russia which would free some manpower for the war of 1812, Wellingtob may have failed in Spain but in America he became know as the general who won his fame and later the Iron Duke. Now The US forces won and lost in this war they lost Louisiana Purchase but won the Oregon Country, in Canada the Louisiana Purchase became part of Quebec ruled by the exile Bourbons and French royalists.

Also other parts of Canada have exiled nations and royal families to rule such has the Dutch and there royal house.

I want it set in 1914, WW1 freeing the world from Napoleon V grip and his empire.

I need help in creating this setting,

LW
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Now The US forces won and lost in this war they lost Louisiana Purchase but won the Oregon Country, in Canada the Louisiana Purchase became part of Quebec ruled by the exile Bourbons and French royalists.

If the Americans do not control the Louisiana Territory, I see no way in which they can gain, much less keep, control of the Oregon Country.

Also other parts of Canada have exiled nations and royal families to rule such has the Dutch and there royal house.

But the Dutch have no significant presence in Canada at any time in history, and certainly not around 1812. Why would they go to Canada rather than London, where they would be much more comfortable and where communications with their sympathizers in Holland would be much easier?
 
Well I wanted to have Wellington have his miltary success in North America rather then in Spain that led to him becoming the Iron Duke, so he would have his combined Army facing the Americans with French help. I thought that the Luisiana Purchase would make for a good land to link up with Quebec and become Bourbon domain,


I think that Americans could hold onto the Oregon Country, the treaty of Gent could give America this country in exchnage for Louisiana Purchase and Spanish America as well.

LW
 
Now The US forces won and lost in this war they lost Louisiana Purchase but won the Oregon Country, in Canada the Louisiana Purchase became part of Quebec ruled by the exile Bourbons and French royalists.
Even if France doesn't take back Louisiana, and sell It . The US will take it by 1804.
By 1812 and the war with Britain whe will have heavy settlement all along the Mississippi on the West side.
Even if Britain takes New Orleans, I doubt if they would get more than OTL's Louisiana State.
I think that Americans could hold onto the Oregon Country,
Without holding the northern Louisiana Territory, the US has no way to get there.
Well I wanted to have Wellington have his military success in North America rather then in Spain that led to him becoming the Iron Duke,
You do know that the Term Iron Duke refers to the Steel Shutters on his House -- Not to any Military action.
 
Hi this timeframe and setting Napoleon I empire of 1811 is still around in 1914 to late 1930's,

There's problem one. It's just not likely. Napoleon burned brightly and then he was extinguished. And while there is a slim chance of him establishing a stable French-dominated order, it won't be that of 1811. From what I've heard, he didn't even want to keep the Netherlands and northwest Germany. He annexed them because his client rulers were lax in enforcing the Continental System (more on this below), but intended to withdraw to the Rhein after making peace with Britain.


Now in 1811 Napoleon didn't invade Russia which would free some manpower for the war of 1812,

People think it was stupid to invade Russia, which it was, but they forget that it wasn't random. Napoleon war resolved to fight by the later part of 1811, and the reasons lay in 1810. The reason for those Dutch and German annexations was that Russia, by knowingly importing British goods in 1810 and selling them in Germany, destroyed teh Continental System. Russian diplomats were at work in Berlin and Vienna, and their propagandists in Poland. Russian society had come to intensely dislike and distrust the French entente and the hardship of the blockade, and Alexander was disturbed by the memory of his father's murder. At this time, the Russian aristocracy thought nothing of offing a Tsar they dissaproved of.

If Napoleon doesn't fight, he can either conciliate by selling out the Poles (the idea that the Duchy of Warsaw could be converted into a restored Polish Kingdom caused a sort of red scare among Orthodox Russians, and even the bizarrely Polanophile Alexander talked with Czartowski about using the Poles against France), or he can watch as Russia formally leaves the Continental System and opens full trade with Britain.

In the first case, he's lost his prestige and he's put Russia in a position to immediately occupy Prussia, which will of course switch sides. Russia will probably just gradually re-introduce its offensive policies (British goods, canvessing the Germans, attacking the Ottomans) gradually, and we're back with case two, except that the Russian's get a better start line.

In case two, the Russians will eventually be compelled to start the war themselves. And while all this is happening, there's still Spain. It was an open wound even without Wellington gallavanting across it. The only way to decisively break Spanish resistance is to leave central Europe pretty much naked. Russia (and Prussia) will do what Austria tried in 1809, only it will probably work.

Wellingtob may have failed in Spain but in America he became know as the general who won his fame and later the Iron Duke. Now The US forces won and lost in this war they lost Louisiana Purchase but won the Oregon Country, in Canada the Louisiana Purchase became part of Quebec ruled by the exile Bourbons and French royalists.

A) How can you get Oregon without Louisiana? And also, as noted, Americans will just settle the Mississipi valley regardless of what we say. Think Texas and California.

B) Why would be sell out our territory (some of which had a serious Anglo population by this point anyway) to a government we had stopped recognising in 1802? The idea that Britain, and everyone, was determined to destroy Bonepart is bogus. Napoleon could have saved his throne in 1813 if he hadn't been so ludicrously stubborn.

And you'd have to speak to the Canadians about that, but by 181X I don't think the Quebecois really cared about being ruled by France while their language and customs were safe, which they were.

Also other parts of Canada have exiled nations and royal families to rule such has the Dutch and there royal house.

What, you mean Louis Bonepart's lot?

The Dutch (non-Bonepart) monarchy was created in 1814. And anyway, as noted, London's closer.

I want it set in 1914, WW1 freeing the world from Napoleon V grip and his empire.

I need help in creating this setting,

LW

There's nothing mystical about 1914 which mandates a massive conflict, you know. It could be any year. It could just not happen.

You do know that the Term Iron Duke refers to the Steel Shutters on his House -- Not to any Military action.

True as this is, I would like to take this opportunity to remind everybody that the Duke of Awesometon good cause people's heads to explode with the power of his mind.
 
There's problem one. It's just not likely. Napoleon burned brightly and then he was extinguished. And while there is a slim chance of him establishing a stable French-dominated order, it won't be that of 1811. From what I've heard, he didn't even want to keep the Netherlands and northwest Germany. He annexed them because his client rulers were lax in enforcing the Continental System (more on this below), but intended to withdraw to the Rhein after making peace with Britain.
[

I agree, for the most part. I think. It's not clear to me that Napoleon would've withdrawn, although this seems sensible. (And the territories weren't run like they were part of France; they weren't allowed within the French tariff wall, for instance.)

The one territory I could see ending up part of the "French" Empire directly was Italy; which Napoleon was also the King of. France-Italy against Austria-Hungary?

In the first case, he's lost his prestige and he's put Russia in a position to immediately occupy Prussia, which will of course switch sides. Russia will probably just gradually re-introduce its offensive policies (British goods, canvessing the Germans, attacking the Ottomans) gradually, and we're back with case two, except that the Russian's get a better start line.

Of course, this also puts the Russians closer to where Napoleon can push the full weight of his armies. But I agree, it's a problem.

I don't think Prussia is strong enough, though.

Hrmm. I wonder if your better bet might be to have Napoleon not place Jerome on the Spanish throne, but instead the Spanish Prince, whose name escapes me at the moment.
 
I agree, for the most part. I think. It's not clear to me that Napoleon would've withdrawn, although this seems sensible. (And the territories weren't run like they were part of France; they weren't allowed within the French tariff wall, for instance.)

They were, however, annexed in a strict sense, which caused enough diplomatic fallout as it was. Indeed, I believe Alexander tried to get the German princelings compensated with bits of the DW to deal with the Polish question.

The one territory I could see ending up part of the "French" Empire directly was Italy; which Napoleon was also the King of. France-Italy against Austria-Hungary?

That does seem pretty likely. Murat, at least, was already trying to harness Italian nationalism to the cause by 1815.

Of course, this also puts the Russians closer to where Napoleon can push the full weight of his armies. But I agree, it's a problem.

Yeah. Really, Napoleon probably should have put up a strong front against the Russians and let them come to him. That gives him all the advantages of strategic and tactical defence, and of course largely solves the supply problem, but hey, this is Napoleon we're talking about. The only defence is attack!

I don't think Prussia is strong enough, though.

Prussia had been made a power in roughly the rank of Sweden by 1806, it's true, but Scharnhorst's schemes did give it a ludicrously oversized army, and they're not going to fight for Napoleon against Russia barring some tremendous PR disaster. The OTL Prussian Expeditionary Corps in Russia avoided fighting, deserted as a unit, declared itself the Russo-German Legion, marched back home, and FWIII, at least, thought that the message was "go to war or lose the throne".

But then, in OTL one of the main consequences of Prussia's defection was that Napoleon's plan to rebuild in Poland went out the window. If his main forces were in Germany, intact, that's much less of a problem.

In fact, if he's sensible (for once), Napoleon seems pretty likely to keep the throne of a bigger France in this scenario. I wasn't saying Failure Is The Only Option, just explaining that the unstoppable 1811 French Empire lives forever is not the only upshot, even the most liklely, of keeping away from Moscow.

Hrmm. I wonder if your better bet might be to have Napoleon not place Jerome on the Spanish throne, but instead the Spanish Prince, whose name escapes me at the moment.

I'd think definately. Spain was a big problem. The drain of manpower and materiel for no obvious gain was bad enough, but an even bigger problem was the whole two-front issue.

A very important question is what Austria will do here. I'd imagine they'd shadow the fighting in Germany, turning the concession-screws on both sides. The Coalition has more to offer, I'd say, but depending on the military situation it might not look like a terribly safe investment.
 
Now if Wellington failed in Pennisular Campaign that would have freed alot of French corps to help Napoleon, also it would effect the war of 1812 the English would see as second bite at the Napoleonic apple and Wellington would make his name in this war. The ending of this war would effect this world's American Civil War and the Europe 1860's to 1870's German war of unity,

The treaty of gent laid out the state of America, the Louisiana Purchase was given to exile French royalists as new France with connected to Quebec ruled over by the Bourbons and part of Canada. The Americans get Spainish America and Oregon country,

LW
 
That does seem pretty likely. Murat, at least, was already trying to harness Italian nationalism to the cause by 1815.

Wlell he was trying, but Northern Italy was one of the few areas to have a strong support for the Napoleonic state. I could see that changing as time goes on, but, I'm not sure it would.

I'd think definately. Spain was a big problem. The drain of manpower and materiel for no obvious gain was bad enough, but an even bigger problem was the whole two-front issue.

A very important question is what Austria will do here. I'd imagine they'd shadow the fighting in Germany, turning the concession-screws on both sides. The Coalition has more to offer, I'd say, but depending on the military situation it might not look like a terribly safe investment.

Does the Coalition have more to offer? The Austrians were terrified of Russia, and they now have a Habsburg prince next in line for the throne of France.
 
Top