Napoleon dismantles the Austrian and Prussian Empires

Why didn't Napoleon make any attempt to dismantle the Prussian and Austrian Empires? Either through direct annexation, setting up a client state, placing a Bonaparte on the throne or partitioning among small-allied states?

Napoleon occupied Vienna in 1805, and was in a military position to totally dismantle the Austrian Empire if he saw fit. Instead he had to face them again in a much closer affair at Wagram in 1809. The disloyalty of the Austro-German contingent during the 1812 Invasion of Russia was a major factor in Napoleon's crushing defeat, or at least the epic scale of it. And Austria and Prussia supplied the main armies of 1813.

The Duchy of Warsaw created out of Prussian territory was one of Napoleon's most useful and loyal allies. Napoleon could likewise have created client states out of Bohemia and Hungary which would have provided an important defensive belt following 1812.

The thing about Napoleon as a conqueror is that he did not expand France's political borders all the far relative to his military conquests. Even if you count his puppet states as French territories, he still never attempted to occupy the two great European powers Austria and Prussia, that his armies had already bested. Had Napoleon did to Austria, what he did to Spain, the conditions in central europe would have proven far less favorable to any guerrilla war.
 
He actually tried with Prussia in 1807, and only changed his mind because he saw fit to find a compromise with Russia.
I think the timing of the wars is essential in understanding why Napoleon never erased either power from the map.
A key factor in Napoleon's success was having not to deal with all the three Eastern powers at the same time. He first tried an understanding with Prussia, then a sort of alliance with Russia, and finally a marriage alliance with Austria. None of this worked ultimately, of course.
But the point is, he always needed at least one of the three powers more or less on his side to beat the hell out of the other two.
Now, what would happen if he tries to destroy either Austria or Prussia at any given time? All the three powers would join their forces and fight to death, because they would realize that death is the only destiny Napoleon could accept for them in the end. They realized that OTL anyway, but seeing Austria ripped apart into a host of Bonaparte client states, for example, would force this line of thinking earlier.
In other words, Napoleon never had the political and military edge to upset the european Balance that much.
 
I've read that Napoleon offered an independent Hungary to Esterhazy but he didn't want it; he was probably the only person in a position to have taken it on!

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Yeah, Esterhazy king of Hungary would be a very interesting POD.
No one has ever tried his hands at a Napoleonic timeline with this twixt, AFAIK.

Would Austria-Bohemia be left as a rump Habsburg state or is there some candidate for these thrones too?
Asa matter of fact, one of the reasons for the survival of the Habsburgs was the need of Nappy to gain European legitimacy by marrying Marie Louise: it may look like a stupid reason, but I'm convinced it played a role.

Re Prussia, the king was let on his throne, but all the major fortresses were garrisoned by French troops. What could have he done more?
 
Re Prussia, the king was let on his throne, but all the major fortresses were garrisoned by French troops. What could have he done more?

One obvoius idea: If you think Talleyrand was right, and a Franco-Austrian alliance was viable, then give Silesia back to Austria.
 
Re Prussia, the king was let on his throne, but all the major fortresses were garrisoned by French troops. What could have he done more?
I suppose he could have given some land to the Duchy of Warsaw and install one of his relatives\marshals as King of (or 'in') Prussia?
 
That basically is what he did, anything more would have had no effect whatsoever except to make him look even more like a hell-bent conqueror than he already did.
 
I suppose he could have given some land to the Duchy of Warsaw and install one of his relatives\marshals as King of (or 'in') Prussia?
He could give Upper Silesia to the Duchy of Warsaw actually, the only problem is what would be the consequence of this in a future congress of Vienna..
 
I was thinking that the most obvious client states to divide up Prussia with are Saxony and the Grand Duchy of Warsaw and possibly one of the western German states.
 

AStanley

Banned
I was thinking that the most obvious client states to divide up Prussia with are Saxony and the Grand Duchy of Warsaw and possibly one of the western German states.

I thought Saxony and the Grand Duchy of Warsaw had one common leader? Maybe give them Silesia so they are connected?
 
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I thought Saxony and the Grand Duchy of Warsaw had one leader? Maybe give them Silesia so they are connected?

Saxony and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth shared the same dynasty, the Wettins, during the early to mid 1700s, IIRC. There were no dynastic links by the time of Napoleon, due to the PLC's dissolution.
 
He was already thinking of having hypothetical sons accepted as legitimate Emperors. After Austerlitz, he could have guillotined the Habsburgs, leveled Vienna and salted its earth if he had cared to; he didn't because he wanted to be Charlemagne or Hugh Capet, not Alexander. If he destroyed the German kingdoms, what impetus is there for a foreign regime to recognize Napoleon II as Emperor and not, say, Massena? Or even President Talleyrand?
 
Frederick Augustus had to be convinced to pick up the crown of grand-duke of Warsaw (and some 10 years later he had refused the crown of Poland); while he was certainly happy of the regal crown of saxony, there was not much he might have wanted from Prussia. Maybe Silesia, or a piece of it to attach to his own lands in Lusatia.

The point is that in 1805 Napoleon was willing to try and set up a peace treaty (and destroying Prussia and Austria might have not been the best move to achieve his goal). So Prussia lost most of its Polish lands, to Warsaw, and lost Danzig which became a city-state. Austria lost the Italian and Illyrian territories and a piece of the Polish ones (not to mention the imperial title). And that was that: a serious slap on the wrists, but no drawing and quartering.
 
He could give Upper Silesia to the Duchy of Warsaw actually, the only problem is what would be the consequence of this in a future congress of Vienna..
Only Problem? I dont think Napoleon was very concerned with what happens at a Congress of Vienna concerning his defeat. Probably wanted to avoid that all together. :p
 
What about spliting off Silesia into an independent state ruled by one of his marshals (Grand Duchy of Silesia?)
 
He was already thinking of having hypothetical sons accepted as legitimate Emperors. After Austerlitz, he could have guillotined the Habsburgs, leveled Vienna and salted its earth if he had cared to; he didn't because he wanted to be Charlemagne or Hugh Capet, not Alexander. If he destroyed the German kingdoms, what impetus is there for a foreign regime to recognize Napoleon II as Emperor and not, say, Massena? Or even President Talleyrand?

How hard would it be for them to be accepted if most the other monarchs in Europe are Bonapartes. :)
 

AStanley

Banned
I was thinking Prussia is broken up like this.

Brandenburg and Prussia are either both, or one of them is given a new king.

West (Royal) Prussia is given to the Grand Duchy of Warsaw. Silesia is given to Austria.

When Austria joins the 5th Coalition, Napoleon gifts Silesia to Saxony.

Saxony.png
 
He was already thinking of having hypothetical sons accepted as legitimate Emperors. After Austerlitz, he could have guillotined the Habsburgs, leveled Vienna and salted its earth if he had cared to; he didn't because he wanted to be Charlemagne or Hugh Capet, not Alexander. If he destroyed the German kingdoms, what impetus is there for a foreign regime to recognize Napoleon II as Emperor and not, say, Massena? Or even President Talleyrand?

The only real foreign regime of concern is Russia. Which he might possibly buyoff by granting areas of East Prussia and Galicia.
 
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