Napolean's conquest of Portugal

Mujahid786

Banned
After Napolean conquered Spain, he moved onto Portugal. He was only stopped by the Massive British Lines of Torres Vedras. IF somehow Napolean had managed to overcome the lines and taken portugal, and finished of the remnants of the Spanish Government in Cadiz, where would he have conquered next? Morroco, or maybe this would have given him men to transfer to different places, like Russia, or even attempt at an invasion of Britain.
 
What saved Portugal was not only the "massive" british lines of Torres Vedras but the activity of the Spanish Guerrillas. The army that was supposed to take Oporto entered Galicia with some 100.000 men and it was going to attack and anglo-portuguese army of 20.000. Obviously the allies were doomed, however after occupying Galicia, deploying troops to protect supplies, lines, defend themselves, the french were only able to make 10.000 men approach the anglo-portuguese and had to retreat.

The defeat of Torres Vedras means almost nothing!
 
I fail to see why the fall of Lisbon means the fall of Cadiz. Cadiz was under siege for two years but never fell because the city is in an island and it was supplied by the british fleet operating from Gibraltar.

What saved Portugal was not only the "massive" british lines of Torres Vedras but the activity of the Spanish Guerrillas. The army that was supposed to take Oporto entered Galicia with some 100.000 men and it was going to attack and anglo-portuguese army of 20.000. Obviously the allies were doomed, however after occupying Galicia, deploying troops to protect supplies, lines, defend themselves, the french were only able to make 10.000 men approach the anglo-portuguese and had to retreat.

The french campaign in Galicia was a complete debacle. After beating the british at Coruña, the french only lasted 6 months there before being beaten back to Portugal by the galician guerrillas, including feats such as the Battle of Pontesampaio, where Ney was beaten by a bunch of militiamen who carved trees to use them as wooden cannons. The french had to leave northwestern Spain in shame in July: Galicia and Asturias were the only parts of the country liberated by the spaniards without british help.
 
Sorry, but Napoleon never entered Portugal, the Lines served as the stopping line for Marshall André Massena.
Napoleons's armies might have had a strong chance in most continental (Western and Central) Europe, but in terms of naval forces the UK was stronger.
The demise of the Napoleonic forces in the Iberic peninsula was the combined result of Spanish and Portuguese guerrillas in each respective country and British troops.
Napoleon's army, IMO, was not prepared to conquer Russia.
For your idea, you need an earlier POD.
 

Mujahid786

Banned
I fail to see why the fall of Lisbon means the fall of Cadiz. Cadiz was under siege for two years but never fell because the city is in an island and it was supplied by the british fleet operating from Gibraltar.


but it was the battle of barossa and the previous attack on the french fire ships that ultimately raised the seige, if france had more fire ships they could have burned down the british navy supplying the island, and also the spanish refused to fight the french in barossa, the british did it while the spanish were resting in view of the battle. if portugal fell and the lisbon garrison was ejected, then the spaniards might lose hope and make peace with napolean.
 

Mujahid786

Banned
If the French capture Lisbon, and eject the British Garrison, there will be no peninsular war, and no saving Spain. Cadiz will fall, and tied up troops can be used for anti-guerilla or sent to Russia or other places.
 
The demise of the Napoleonic forces in the Iberic peninsula was the combined result of Spanish and Portuguese guerrillas in each respective country and British troops.

The guerillas did their part, and they definitly bled the french, but I dont think that its entirely accurate to give them that much credit. After all, the french did have successes against them when the Anglo-Portuguese-Spanish field armies were not present. IMO, the french lost as much due to their almost shocking inability to beat the British and allied armies in the field when they had the chance.
 
If the French capture Lisbon, and eject the British Garrison, there will be no peninsular war, and no saving Spain. Cadiz will fall, and tied up troops can be used for anti-guerilla or sent to Russia or other places.
Capturing Lisbon doesn't affect much the resistance to the French armies.

The guerillas did their part, and they definitly bled the french, but I dont think that its entirely accurate to give them that much credit. After all, the french did have successes against them when the Anglo-Portuguese-Spanish field armies were not present. IMO, the french lost as much due to their almost shocking inability to beat the British and allied armies in the field when they had the chance.
The Napoleonic Armies won battles in good part due to numerical superiority. In some cases the Portuguese Army had orders from the Regency not to engage the Napoleonic Armies. Even then they couldn't effectively control the whole territory (rebellious movements from the part of the Portuguese population recovered parts of the territory on their own).
 
The Napoleonic Armies won battles in good part due to numerical superiority. In some cases the Portuguese Army had orders from the Regency not to engage the Napoleonic Armies. Even then they couldn't effectively control the whole territory (rebellious movements from the part of the Portuguese population recovered parts of the territory on their own).

I do not know a whole lot about the portuguese guerrilla movements, but to the best of my knowledge the Spanish equivalents were never a true threat as long as the field armies could be disposed of. And the Portuguese did offer battle to the French forces several times, albiet often in tandem with British (and later Spanish) soldiers.
 
Sorry, but Napoleon never entered Portugal, the Lines served as the stopping line for Marshall André Massena.
Napoleons's armies might have had a strong chance in most continental (Western and Central) Europe, but in terms of naval forces the UK was stronger.
The demise of the Napoleonic forces in the Iberic peninsula was the combined result of Spanish and Portuguese guerrillas in each respective country and British troops.
Napoleon's army, IMO, was not prepared to conquer Russia.
For your idea, you need an earlier POD.

Napoleon, or even better, his armies did entered Portugal. Torres Verdras is North of Lisbon, way inside Portugal. And before that invasion there were two others. In one the armies entered trhough the Beira and the on the other they only reached Oporto.

If the French capture Lisbon, and eject the British Garrison, there will be no peninsular war, and no saving Spain. Cadiz will fall, and tied up troops can be used for anti-guerilla or sent to Russia or other places.

Sorry, but there isn't "if the French capture Lisbon" because they did captured it. They took posession of the town and the only resistance they met in there was the people revolting. When the French flag replaced the Portuguese one in the Castle of S. Jorge in Lisbon the people started to shout "Hail Portugal, Hail the Five Wounds (Stimgata), Death to France!"

Capturing Lisbon doesn't affect much the resistance to the French armies.


The Napoleonic Armies won battles in good part due to numerical superiority. In some cases the Portuguese Army had orders from the Regency not to engage the Napoleonic Armies. Even then they couldn't effectively control the whole territory (rebellious movements from the part of the Portuguese population recovered parts of the territory on their own).

Well, that isn't exactly true. D. João VI left orders to the regency council to not resist to the french armires. So it is not in "some cases" it happened only in the first invasion by Junot and it didn't, one year after D. João declares war to the french. So it was from October of 1807 to May 1808, that such order was to be followed.
 
Napoleon, or even better, his armies did entered Portugal. Torres Verdras is North of Lisbon, way inside Portugal. And before that invasion there were two others. In one the armies entered trhough the Beira and the on the other they only reached Oporto.

The point was that Napoleon wasn't stopped at the Lines of Torres Vedras. They didn't exist when Napoleon conquered Spain and drove Sir John Moore out of the Iberian Peninsular.

By the time that Wellington came to use the Lines of Torres Vedras the French Marshal opposing him was Andre Messena. Napoleon was off preparing for or campaigning against Russia.

Wellington had constructed the lines in secrecy during the 1809 and 1810 before Messena came to command in the Iberian Peninsular. Napoleons Campaign of conquest in the Iberian Peninsular was at least a year before the construction of the Lines began.
 
Napoleon, or even better, his armies did entered Portugal.
Please notice I said Napoleonic Armies instead of Napoleon. ;)
Torres Verdras is North of Lisbon, way inside Portugal. And before that invasion there were two others. In one the armies entered trhough the Beira and the on the other they only reached Oporto.
I was referring to the third invasion where the lines were used.

Well, that isn't exactly true. D. João VI left orders to the regency council to not resist to the french armires. So it is not in "some cases" it happened only in the first invasion by Junot and it didn't, one year after D. João declares war to the french. So it was from October of 1807 to May 1808, that such order was to be followed.
A poor phrasing on my part.:eek:
I meant a limited event on the context of the whole period of the Napoleonic Invasions, in this case the beginning.
 
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