Napleonic Wars End In 1814 By Treaty

I recently heard that the Allies offered Napoleon a settlement in late 1813 or early 1814 which would have left France all of her current territory plus Belgium those parts of Holland and Germany-to-be west of the Rhine.

If true and if France had accepted such terms, what would have been the subsequent effects on history either with or without Napoleon in charge?
 
I recently heard that the Allies offered Napoleon a settlement in late 1813 or early 1814 which would have left France all of her current territory plus Belgium those parts of Holland and Germany-to-be west of the Rhine.

If true and if France had accepted such terms, what would have been the subsequent effects on history either with or without Napoleon in charge?

I'd want to check me my Zamoyski to comment, but some thoughts:

1) An earlier end to the Napoleonic Wars butterflies majorly on the War of 1812.

2) Garibaldi's hometown of Nice stays French. Ho-hum.

3) Prussia (who has secured Anglo-Russian backing for "a restoration of her stature of 1806") will have to be compenstated with more slabs of Germany.
 
I'd want to check me my Zamoyski to comment, but some thoughts:

1) An earlier end to the Napoleonic Wars butterflies majorly on the War of 1812.

2) Garibaldi's hometown of Nice stays French. Ho-hum.

3) Prussia (who has secured Anglo-Russian backing for "a restoration of her stature of 1806") will have to be compenstated with more slabs of Germany.


aS TO 3), There is nothing in the opening post that would keep Prussia from her stature of 1806 if we are only loooking at the borders of France here. Unless of course Poland remains an independent entity.
 
aS TO 3), There is nothing in the opening post that would keep Prussia from her stature of 1806 if we are only loooking at the borders of France here. Unless of course Poland remains an independent entity.

Concerning Poland: this was the point of the original treaty. Alexander I was one messed up case, determined to please everybody (and all the more so after he developed his messiah complex), and that included the Poles (and his desires in the direction were being ably managed by Czartorysky). Alex wasn't willing to slice up Poland again (you'll note that under the plan he and Friedrich Wilhelm forumalted, Russia got Poznan and Torun as well). We wanted at least the better part under Russian constitution rule, and wasn't willing to let Prussia regain her actual 1806 boundaries (which was what she's originally suggested), so it was decided that Prussia should be equally compensated with german lands ostensibly taken from Napoleon's collaborators, although of course what constituted "collaboration" and indeed "equal compensation" was stretched by both sides until it was limp.

Without the left bank of the Rhine (and remembver that that's some much more valuable real estate than Great Poland there), Prussia will want and equivelant somewhere else, probably all of Saxony (they were really serious about this, doing lengthy sheets of calculations to prove how they deserved the lands of the Prince of Pumpernickel et al).
 
Concerning Poland: this was the point of the original treaty. Alexander I was one messed up case, determined to please everybody (and all the more so after he developed his messiah complex), and that included the Poles (and his desires in the direction were being ably managed by Czartorysky). Alex wasn't willing to slice up Poland again (you'll note that under the plan he and Friedrich Wilhelm forumalted, Russia got Poznan and Torun as well). We wanted at least the better part under Russian constitution rule, and wasn't willing to let Prussia regain her actual 1806 boundaries (which was what she's originally suggested), so it was decided that Prussia should be equally compensated with german lands ostensibly taken from Napoleon's collaborators, although of course what constituted "collaboration" and indeed "equal compensation" was stretched by both sides until it was limp.

Without the left bank of the Rhine (and remembver that that's some much more valuable real estate than Great Poland there), Prussia will want and equivelant somewhere else, probably all of Saxony (they were really serious about this, doing lengthy sheets of calculations to prove how they deserved the lands of the Prince of Pumpernickel et al).

Well I suppose now we know why the plan was a non-starter... doubtful that even napoleon would be willing to sacrifice Saxony to the eastern wolves. So what you need is Alexander and napoleon to be a little more flexible and let the Prussians go hang. I mean lets see... Poland is annexed as an autonomous Kingdom/GD of Russia...Prussia gets its gains in northern Saxony but the southern core remains with the Wettins as OTL and they can get the Westfalian lands east of the Rhine as per OTL. Its not quite what they got OTL but its not too shabby either. (they will stillhave the Ruhr of course when it develops but it is going to be awefully exposed to the French. At least as much as the French iron mines of northern Lorraine were to the Germans.

If Napoleon, Metternich and the Tsar are on the same page there is little Prussia can do but acceed to the agreement. And yes I am assuming the Castlereagh is onside too though this leaves a very big France on their doorstep so I expect him actually to be in the Prussian corner. But if the French do remove themselves completely from Spain, well the Brits are abit tired of this affair by this point. Of course on another note... there are a lot of French terr. overseas that won't have to be returned either perhaps ( French India, Reunion, Mauritius for instance, not to mention the Caribbean, posts in West Africa...) they wouldn't have to all be acquired by the Brits of course...but some could be distributed to the maritime allies....Spain, Portugal, Sweden and of course the Dutch (kingdom or republic I am not really sure what it would be)..assuming they are a smaller maritime power now. there is of course the matter of what to do with the French Bourbons of course. Mind you... let them get the Mexican dominion from their Spanish cousins.....

another thought...given Napoleonic France on his border...its doubtful that Fernando will be bold enough to set aside the constitution of 1812 sparking unrest with the Liberals in Spain.
 
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Well I suppose now we know why the plan was a non-starter... doubtful that even napoleon would be willing to sacrifice Saxony to the eastern wolves. So what you need is Alexander and napoleon to be a little more flexible and let the Prussians go hang. I mean lets see... Poland is annexed as an autonomous Kingdom/GD of Russia...Prussia gets its gains in northern Saxony but the southern core remains with the Wettins as OTL and they can get the Westfalian lands east of the Rhine as per OTL. Its not quite what they got OTL but its not too shabby either. (they will stillhave the Ruhr of course when it develops but it is going to be awefully exposed to the French. At least as much as the French iron mines of northern Lorraine were to the Germans.

Why is Saxony more important than Poland? Poland was of much more sentimental-prestige value, and in 1811 and 1813 Napoleon showed himself willing to sell it out if necessary. Of course he became determined not to give an inch after the Maret conspiracy became known to him and he became paranoid about his prestige, but to have the negotiatiions of 1814 succeed, we must assume this has changed somehow (I don't see how this is done, and I think a better PoD for a negoiated end might be to have Napoleon press his advantage ater Bautzen: with skill and luck he can divide Russia from Prussia and force them to go to the table in earnestest).

While under the PoD there outline Napoleon can negotiate in Germany, then by 1814 he was in no position to demand anything. Being allowed to keep greater France was a big concession, seeing as how the allies could, after Leipzig, have finished the war completely just as they did, and testament to their exhaustian, mutual distrust, and almost supernatural fear of Napoleon changing everything with a sudden "Austerlitz" (or more prosaicly just dying, which would be bad enough, what with the succesion issues in France).

And nobody knew about the Ruhr (or the Saar of Lorraine). The Rhineland was more valuable than Great Poland as it was well-populated and extensively cultivated with many thriving towns and good infrastructure. Its value would soar as the industrial revolution proceeded, which was one cause of the 1815 settlement being undone.

If Napoleon, Metternich and the Tsar are on the same page there is little Prussia can do but acceed to the agreement. And yes I am assuming the Castlereagh is onside too though this leaves a very big France on their doorstep so I expect him actually to be in the Prussian corner. But if the French do remove themselves completely from Spain, well the Brits are abit tired of this affair by this point. Of course on another note... there are a lot of French terr. overseas that won't have to be returned either perhaps ( French India, Reunion, Mauritius for instance, not to mention the Caribbean, posts in West Africa...) they wouldn't have to all be acquired by the Brits of course...but some could be distributed to the maritime allies....Spain, Portugal, Sweden and of course the Dutch (kingdom or republic I am not really sure what it would be)..assuming they are a smaller maritime power now. there is of course the matter of what to do with the French Bourbons of course. Mind you... let them get the Mexican dominion from their Spanish cousins.....

The Colaition had pretty much no real affection for the Bourbons who they brought back by default. Alexander, during desperate negotiations to keep Sweden on-side during 1812, actually threw out the possibility of giving the crown to Bernadotte as if it was his to give.

But why would the Tsar ascribe to such a scheme? In the OTL Congress, Russia and Prussia formed a bloc that was willing to be tremendously obstinant towards everyone else, and if anything they'll have more prestige and better arguments to carry the project through. They may be foiled, but Russia will still make noises.
 
Well actually no... Saxony is not more important than Poland... but it is the Seat of the Wettins, and they were one of the last to leave Nappy's side so I can't see Saxony completely dissappearing under any circumstance if THE AGREEMENT IS ACHIEVED...Mind you thats probably more because they had no choice rather than design of their own.

and on that, as stated to get the agreement, yes Russia would make noise under the suppositions of OTL so that agreement is not possible hence i stated that Alexander would have to be willing to let the Prussians go hang.

having Napoleon pursue his advantage after Bautzen I suppose would give that impetus, but it makes it less likely that Saxony itself is going to be deminished. after having suffered so much as an ally of Napoleon. \however as \isaid here...NAPOLEON HAS TO BE WILLING TO ADJUST AS WELL...

That means sacrificing at least a part Saxony to Prussian aspirations to get the treaty...

so perhaps...Prussia just gets the northern half of Saxony as OTL or, but not both, the east bank of the Rhine (Westphalia/Berg). So if the Prussians opt for the northern terr. Probably would be their choice anyways given its proximity to the core terr., then Saxony can have the east bank as compensation for losing the personal union with Poland and the northern terr.

the allies would probably prefer Prussia on that east bank rather then Saxony of course and the French would probably prefer the Saxons if they have to give direct/indirect control up to a German Prince. As to the Saxons themselves...there probably just wishing for the damn thing to end as soon as possible with their own losses minimised as much as possible.

Any thoughts frrom anyone on what France would keep overseas if anything...or would I be correct that it gets stripped and given over to the British and the maritime allies.

Fr. Guiana can go to Portugal (Brasil really) Reunion ( ile de Bourbon) to the Dutch along with the Fr. post at Goree in West Africa. Saint Louis and the W Afr coast northwards to Spain. Enclaves and posts at Albreda and Assinie to the British...

Fr. India split between the British, Portuguese and Dutch.
Sweden does get Guadeloupe and the Fr. dependencies to the north in the Leeward Islands. which leaves Martinique probably Br. with say St. Lucia going to Spain....or better yet Tobago goes to Spain and Trinidad is returned, with Britain keeping St. Lucia as OTL and gains Martinique instead.
 
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While under the PoD there outline Napoleon can negotiate in Germany, then by 1814 he was in no position to demand anything. Being allowed to keep greater France was a big concession, seeing as how the allies could, after Leipzig, have finished the war completely just as they did, and testament to their exhaustian, mutual distrust, and almost supernatural fear of Napoleon changing everything with a sudden "Austerlitz" (or more prosaicly just dying, which would be bad enough, what with the succesion issues in France

I wouldn't forget that the next Emperor of France will be raised by a Habsburg mother as something Metternich was calculating.

Also, while people were worried about France's role in the balance of power, this doesn't mean people were not concerned with Britain. A French Antwerp would help them build a navy powerful enough to at least menace Britain, balancing out that power as well.
 
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I wouldn't forget that the next Emperor of France will be raised by a Habsburg mother as something Metternich was calculating.

Also, while people were worried about France's role in the balance of power, this doesn't mean people were not concerned with Britain. A French Antwerp would help them build a navy powerful enough to at least menace Britain, balancing out that power as well.


these are actually yes both good points...given the role the British played through this conflict yes...

So what we see a Franco - Austrian rapprochement then that basically balances out the Russo-Prussian dichotomy.


That might just work for the first third/half of the century I suppose. Napoleon II could then very well have comon interests with Austria in keeping Germany divided and Prussia in check, but they are still not likely to see eye to eye over Italy. but hey, if France is stripped of what possessions it has overseas it will need to rebuild that maritime empire again for yet a third time. That could be more demanding for it and thus willing to compromise with the Austrian inlaws where Italy is concerned.
 
There's something that nobody is touching on here; Napoleon's psychological make-up. He had several opportunities to get what he wanted either through diplomatic channels or dynastic marriage, but didn't take them. The reason for this was because once he started the war, he didn't know how to stop and the reason for that was because he was psychologically incapable of thinking that he could get what he wanted through any other means than war.
 
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There's something that nobody is touching on here; Napoleon's psychological make-up. He had several opportunities to get what he wanted either through diplomatic channels or dynastic marriage, but didn't take them. The reason for this was because once he started the war, he didn't know how to stop and the reason for that was because he was psychologically incapable of thinking that he could what he wanted through any other means than war.

This isn't actually clear. Was it Napoleon who broke Amiens?
 
Mike, a good point but it is also true that by 1815 Napoleon realized he was no longer the commander he had once been so perhaps, if he takes the deal and it holds just a few years, Napoleon by 1818 or 1820 might realize he just isn't up for the campaigns of his youth and adapt.
 
Mike, a good point but it is also true that by 1815 Napoleon realized he was no longer the commander he had once been so perhaps, if he takes the deal and it holds just a few years, Napoleon by 1818 or 1820 might realize he just isn't up for the campaigns of his youth and adapt.

If he's smart he'll set himself as the figurehead and allow his brother, Louis to have more or less free hand. In 1806 Napoleon made Louis the King of Holland, where he proved to be a competant and popular monarch.
 
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If he's smart he'll set himself as the figurehead and allow his brother, Louis to have more or less free hand. In 1806 Napoleon made Louis the King of Holland, where he proved to be a competant and popular monarch.

Napoleon was also competent and popular, though.
 
There's something that nobody is touching on here; Napoleon's psychological make-up. He had several opportunities to get what he wanted either through diplomatic channels or dynastic marriage, but didn't take them. The reason for this was because once he started the war, he didn't know how to stop and the reason for that was because he was psychologically incapable of thinking that he could get what he wanted through any other means than war.

As Faeelin says, we have little cear proof. It seems that in his negotiations after Bautzen, Napoleon had every intention of making peace (as did Metternich). Russia and Prussia turned the whole thing into a farce by sending along a commited war-party member and German nationalist, and a commited war-party member and renegade Frenchman, and the Britain turned up late with nothing but bags of money. My Bautzen idea is to put Russia and Prussia in no position to be so flippant, and everybody was pretty worried after Bautzen. If Prussia insisted on defending Berlin, the allies could be split, and Austria would likely shuffle back in France's direction.

I wouldn't forget that the next Emperor of France will be raised by a Habsburg mother as something Metternich was calculating.

Also, while people were worried about France's role in the balance of power, this doesn't mean people were not concerned with Britain. A French Antwerp would help them build a navy powerful enough to at least menace Britain, balancing out that power as well.

Mutual distrust indeed. Good points.

Well actually no... Saxony is not more important than Poland... but it is the Seat of the Wettins, and they were one of the last to leave Nappy's side so I can't see Saxony completely dissappearing under any circumstance if THE AGREEMENT IS ACHIEVED...Mind you thats probably more because they had no choice rather than design of their own.

As I said, Napoleon knew he was going to have to sell Poland the moment Prussia joined the war (and hadn't been overly averse to the idea in 1811 either), so I really can't see him, if he's somehow in a temperament to accept that Coalition's overtures, making any fuss about what goes on on the other side of the Rhine. It's not like it's a French strategic interest, since all the German princes are going under the Austro-Prussian umbrella anyway (this was Metternich's schene: Austria, with a Prussian accomplice, dominating "Central Europe", that is Germany, Italy, and the Danube basin while Russia, France, and Britain somehow balanced eachother out).

and on that, as stated to get the agreement, yes Russia would make noise under the suppositions of OTL so that agreement is not possible hence i stated that Alexander would have to be willing to let the Prussians go hang.

I'm not really following. You're saying for peace to be made in 1814, Russia has to ditch Prussia? I simply don't see why. Even if Prussia comes off the worse, which is pretty likely, Russia isn't going to be laughing with glee.

having Napoleon pursue his advantage after Bautzen I suppose would give that impetus, but it makes it less likely that Saxony itself is going to be deminished. after having suffered so much as an ally of Napoleon. \however as \isaid here...NAPOLEON HAS TO BE WILLING TO ADJUST AS WELL...

That means sacrificing at least a part Saxony to Prussian aspirations to get the treaty...

Prussia may not be in much position to demand anything. Napoleon was keen to make peace with Russia but didn't want to make concessions to Prussia as he thought her a traitor, not to mention simply much the weaker of the pair. France and Russia making peace at the expense of everybody else was the greatest fear of... well, everybody else, and advocated by quite a few Russian generals who weren't keen to go gallavanting over Europe and thought that the DoW was price enough for a defensive war. And Berlin may be looking pretty precarious...

so perhaps...Prussia just gets the northern half of Saxony as OTL or, but not both, the east bank of the Rhine (Westphalia/Berg). So if the Prussians opt for the northern terr. Probably would be their choice anyways given its proximity to the core terr., then Saxony can have the east bank as compensation for losing the personal union with Poland and the northern terr.

the allies would probably prefer Prussia on that east bank rather then Saxony of course and the French would probably prefer the Saxons if they have to give direct/indirect control up to a German Prince. As to the Saxons themselves...there probably just wishing for the damn thing to end as soon as possible with their own losses minimised as much as possible.

As I said, Saxony imay not loose anything if Napoleon goes on after Bautzen, but I don't see why any concessions they do make have to be "compensated" at the expense of Napoleon's other sattelites. They weren't that special.

Any thoughts frrom anyone on what France would keep overseas if anything...or would I be correct that it gets stripped and given over to the British and the maritime allies.

Fr. Guiana can go to Portugal (Brasil really) Reunion ( ile de Bourbon) to the Dutch along with the Fr. post at Goree in West Africa. Saint Louis and the W Afr coast northwards to Spain. Enclaves and posts at Albreda and Assinie to the British...

Fr. India split between the British, Portuguese and Dutch.
Sweden does get Guadeloupe and the Fr. dependencies to the north in the Leeward Islands. which leaves Martinique probably Br. with say St. Lucia going to Spain....or better yet Tobago goes to Spain and Trinidad is returned, with Britain keeping St. Lucia as OTL and gains Martinique instead.

That's an interesting question. If France and Russia make peace, Britain will have to come to the table eventually, I should think, but to be honest I'm really not sure what form a deal would take.

Mike, a good point but it is also true that by 1815 Napoleon realized he was no longer the commander he had once been so perhaps, if he takes the deal and it holds just a few years, Napoleon by 1818 or 1820 might realize he just isn't up for the campaigns of his youth and adapt.

Indeed, 1812 Napoleon was already painfully aware that he wasn't 1805 Napoleon, and grumbling about it, to. And I agree with Faeelin: Napoleon is oft-underrated in many resects. And of course, although he wasn't his young self in 1814, he still pulled off the Six Days.
 
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