Naming for Thai Empires

[Mumby]

Now, it seems to me that generally the great empires of southeast Asia have named themselves after their capitol. But in my TL, Siam has gained independence and is in the process of liberating most of OTL Burma and Yunnan from Chinese rule. Now these areas will likely be absorbed into TTL's Siam, due to security fears about reconquest by China, invasion by the Communists to the west, or by the scary-ass Objectivists to the east.

So what do I call this great empire? Carrying on with Siam seems a little disingenuous, and naming it after its capitol seems a tad archaic considering this is the 20th century. National unity will be based on common belief in Buddhism, so what do we think, some allusion to that? Or is there some great empire that existed there which I don't know of that they could hark back to.

 

[tonsofun]

In Thai the word 'Thai' means independence or freedom as well as being the name of the people who populate the centre of Thailand. The name comes from the pride Thai people have in never being conquered by a western power.
Thailand might work for this empire as it can used to symbolize the people who have been liberated. Seeing as there are scary communists and Objectivists on their doorstep. Thailand could work to symbolize how the people liberated by Thailand are free.

 

[Mumby]

Interesting, I'll do some more research but I'll probably roll with that.

 

[JacktheCat]

The words 'Thai' and 'Thailand' (as well as a significant chunk of the Modern Thai Language) are modern inventions dating back all the way to the 1930s. So definitely not something you'd see pre-1900s.

Highly ironically, as they translate to 'free people' and 'land of the free' in English, the words were invented by Thai Fascists, and were meant to symbolise Thai ultra-nationalism and ethnic superiority.

The man primarily responsible for inventing the word 'Thailand' (and well as the the modern Thai word for hello 'Sawadee') narrowly escaped being strung up by the British after WWII for war crimes and crimes against humanity. As well, he was a great fan of Himmler's

 

[Emperor Julian]

The words 'Thai' and 'Thailand' (as well as a significant chunk of the Modern Thai Language) are modern inventions dating back all the way to the 1930s. So definitely not something you'd see pre-1900s.

Highly ironically, as they translate to 'free people' and 'land of the free' in English, the words were invented by Thai Fascists, and were meant to symbolise Thai ultra-nationalism and ethnic superiority.

The man primarily responsible for inventing the word 'Thailand' (and well as the the modern Thai word for hello 'Sawadee') narrowly escaped being strung up by the British after WWII for war crimes and crimes against humanity. As well, he was a great fan of Himmler's

I've never heard of Thai being invented in the twentieth century, considering that it was used in the names of some Thai kingdoms since before the first contact with Europeans (Sukhothai). According to Wikipedia at least, it's actually a misconception that Thai comes from the word for "independence", and it was the traditional ethnic name. This doesn't have a good source though. In conclusion, do you have a credible source to state that the term Thai, being used by the Thais to refer to themselves, was invented by the same people who invented the name "Thailand"?

 

[JacktheCat]

'Thai' as both we English speakers and the Thai themselves use it Today, is a recent, political invention and has a very different modern meaning (and spelling) than its older meaning.

Much like German/Deutsch and Germany/Deutschland have very different meanings Pre and Post 1871.

Source: Myself (Uni Professor of 'Western Studies', former professor at Chulalongkorn University, ** years total lived in SE Asia)

 

[tonsofun]

I've never heard of Thai being invented in the twentieth century, considering that it was used in the names of some Thai kingdoms since before the first contact with Europeans (Sukhothai).

It is easily done, but Thai should not be confused with Tai which is the name of the people form Chian who built Sukhothai. Although some believe that Tai simply means people.

 

[Mumby]

All very interesting, but doesn't answer my question does it?

 

[yourworstnightmare]

Siam
Ayutthaya
Sukhothai

 

[JacktheCat]

All very interesting, but doesn't answer my question does it?

For your postulated ATL where *Siam takes over a significant bit of SE Asia and transforms itself into a state united by religion, not ethnicity, into a Buddhist Theocracy, then a likely name change would be to ...

Shambhala

.

 

[Iori]

Théiravâadphuu, or whatever the correct way of saying Land of Thevada, which would ultimately translate to 'Land of the Teaching of the Elders'.

 

[Emperor Julian]

'Thai' as both we English speakers and the Thai themselves use it Today, is a recent, political invention and has a very different modern meaning (and spelling) than its older meaning.

Much like German/Deutsch and Germany/Deutschland have very different meanings Pre and Post 1871.

Source: Myself (Uni Professor of 'Western Studies', former professor at Chulalongkorn University, ** years total lived in SE Asia)

But if it was already based on an older meaning, having a similar name arise doesn't seem implausible.

 

[Kishan]

If the dynasty is the same as the present Chakri Dynasty, the name Chakri Empire could be used. The name of the ancient capital and the old empire Ayuthaya could also be used. The national emblem is Garuda,the mythological bird which carries Lord Vishnu of Hindu Trinity. Hence Garuda Empire also may be used. If the empire is theocratic in nature a term like the Empire of the Holy Lord Buddha in Thai language may be used. Hence names like Chakri Empire, Garuda Empire, Ayuthaya Empire, Empire of the Holy Lord Buddha etc. can be used.

 

[Mumby]

I'm afraid I've every rolled with 'Empire of Shambhala' trying to protray themselves as the mythical Buddhist kingdom.