Name five plausible things the US can do to better enter WWII?

What is most effective?

  • Propagandize the people and ready them for war.

    Votes: 12 10.2%
  • Reform the army?

    Votes: 51 43.2%
  • Reform the political system? (Civil rights questions for example.)

    Votes: 16 13.6%
  • Break the London Navy Treaty and go all out for the 2 Ocean navy early?

    Votes: 38 32.2%
  • Invest in the scientific trends massively for some advantage?

    Votes: 42 35.6%

  • Total voters
    118
  • Poll closed .
Name five plausible things the US can do to better enter WWII?

McPherson

Banned
Bear in mind, isolationism exists and no lessons learned post 1938 are applicable. Your start year is 1935. You are stuck with the politics you have, the economy you have and the main players, uniformed and civilian you have.

You have technological and political options which were not chosen from 1935. Try to select PoDs with the knowledge the people had then and see if you can do better than they did.

Hint: you might have to get rid of a few people and listen to "prophets" who can make a reasonable case to do things differently.
 
I question how far you actually need to go with many of the above, they all sound extreme but even small moves and solving the depression early would snowball as US is so powerful if done early....?
Propagandize the people and ready them for war. I don't think you need to do much simply start realistic news of the Axis actions will put people off and sell jobs programs for defence industries as just being sensible and buying fire/house/car insurance for the nation?
Reform the army? Yes but not that hard it's just a matter of spending a bit of money on it or even go grand and even the largest you will go is add the CCC/etc to it as an extra reserve?
Reform the political system? (Civil rights questions for example.) very hard and not massively needed to win WWII easily IMO, solving unemployment will help this anyway naturally as well?
Break the London Navy Treaty and go all out for the 2 Ocean navy early? I don't think you even need to break 2LNT, it has no quantity limits so US could defeat IJN before it even starts without doing more than spending to increase employment to combat the later part of the depression?
Invest in the scientific trends massively for some advantage?
Yes but that's just money being spent a lot of it will happen if you solve the depression early IMO without deliberately targeting defence industries for extra special treatment.
 
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Although I voted for Break the London Treaty I see it more as a renegotiation, at least in regards to GB and France. I think this is doable after the Anschluss. Reforming the army is also doable. Although I would love to see better civil rights I don't think it is doable, more scientific research would be nice but without 20/20 hindsight I don't see how you could predict what scientific research would help the war effort the most, which is the only thing I am basing it off of.
 

McPherson

Banned
If scientific trends include fixing torpedo problems, that's at the top of the list.

To fix the torpedo problem you need to solve the political problem, both in Congress and in the American navy.
I question how far you actually need to go with many of the above, they all sound extreme but even small moves and solving the depression early would snowball as US is so powerful if done early....?
You have the economic incompetence you have. I do not see any easy fixes for it or even anybody alive in the US in 1935 who has a freaking clue as to how to prime the pump.
Propagandize the people and ready them for war.
I don't think you need to do much simply start realistic news of the Axis actions will put people off and sell jobs programs for defence industries as just being sensible and buying fire/house/car insurance for the nation?
That effort started in earnest in 1939. Prior to that year, there was more of a "business is business" and we can do business with those guys. I do not see any lesson learned that makes a viable propaganda campaign really start before 1938 myself.
Reform the army?
Yes but not that hard it's just a matter of spending a bit of money on it or even go grand and even the largest you will go is add the CCC/etc to it as an extra reserve?
WWI lessons learned.
a. man-portable machine gun.
b. grenades.
c. staffwork.
d. officer corps sucks.
e. lack of professionalism in the NCO corps.
f. The national guard is too political and it sucks.
g. the draft is unfair.
h. blatant racism.
I. too much apple polishing and politics (refer to d.)
j. tactical doctrine is stuck on stupid.
Reform the political system? (Civil rights questions for example.) very hard and not massively needed to win WWII easily IMO, solving unemployment will help this anyway naturally as well?
This goes to politics. The south was never reconstructed, but the poison of racism from the old Confederacy spread (The modern KKK was born in Indiana.)
Jim Crow is a great deal of what is holding American society back because at least 15% of the population are denied their civil rights. RADICALS like Huey Long and Father Coughlin have traction because the political class plays the bigotry card. Might as well confront it head on, take the needed measures so that the Americans do not go into the war with the onus of hypocrisy and with fully one arm tied behind their backs. I think it was a WWI lesson that thanks to Woodrow Wilson, that rat bastard, and the numbchucks who followed him, was never fixed when the chance was there post WWI and when the chance was best to minimize the further damage the racists did to the US in the 30s.

Break the London Navy Treaty and go all out for the 2 Ocean navy early?
I don't think you even need to break 2LNT, it has no quantity limits so US could defeat IJN before it even starts without doing more than spending to increase employment to combat the later part of the depression?
Hmm. The 2 Ocean Navy law was 1939 and the fleet that came from it was 1943 before it was ready. Getting a 3 year head start on the hulls would be useful.

in the scientific trends massively for some advantage?
Yes but that's just money being spent a lot of it will happen if you solve the depression early IMO without deliberately targeting defence industries for extra special treatment.
a. chemistry, explosives manufacture is out of date.
b. metallurgy, the armor plate is wrong.
c. aviation, can you say maybe reaction engines?
d. metallurgy, high temperature engine components.
e. rockets, paging Mr. Karman and Mr. Goddard?
f. physics of sound, and light. (Earlier FIDO, and Cutie, get a multi-channel sonar, RADAR, and how about sonobuoys and seeing in the dark?)

Although I voted for Break the London Treaty I see it more as a renegotiation, at least in regards to GB and France. I think this is doable after the Anschluss. Reforming the army is also doable. Although I would love to see better civil rights I don't think it is doable, more scientific research would be nice but without 20/20 hindsight I don't see how you could predict what scientific research would help the war effort the most, which is the only thing I am basing it off of.

All WWI lessons learned on the battlefield.
 
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You have the economic incompetence you have. I do not see any easy fixes for it or even anybody alive in the US in 1935 who has a freaking clue as to how to prime the pump.
Is the big issue, the US was already significantly the biggest nation economically (and therefore in defence production capability) even with massive unemployment and dislocation from the depression solving that earlier simply makes them 25+% better come WWII and simply makes everything else trivial......
Hmm. The 2 Ocean Navy law was 1939 and the fleet that came from it was 1933. Getting a 3 year head start on the hulls would be useful.
Hum 1933 I'm not understanding/getting this sentence? Simply building in a large way perfectly legally from 1 JAN 1937 with the collapse of quantitative limits in 2LNT will sort out any navy issues.
a. chemistry, explosives manufacture is out of date.
b. metallurgy, the armor plate is wrong.
c. aviation, can you say maybe reaction engines?
d. metallurgy, high temperature engine components.
e. rockets, paging Mr. Karman and Mr. Goddard?
f. physics of sound, and light. (Earlier FIDO, and Cutie, get a multi-channel sonar, RADAR, and how about sonobuoys and seeing in the dark?)
....
This goes to politics. The south was never reconstructed, but the poison of racism from the old Confederacy spread (The modern KKK was born in Indiana.)
Jim Crow is a great deal of what is holding American society back because at least 15% of the population are denied their civil rights. RADICALS like Huey Long and Father Coughlin have traction because the political class plays the bigotry card. Might as well confront it head on, take the needed measures so that the Americans do not go into the war with the onus of hypocrisy and with fully one arm tied behind their backs. I think it was a WWI lesson that thanks to Woodrow Wilson, that rat bastard, and the numbchucks who followed him, was never fixed when the chance was there post WWI and when the chance was best to minimize the further damage the racists did to the US in the 30s.
.....
WWI lessons learned.
a. man-portable machine gun.
b. grenades.
c. staffwork.
d. officer corps sucks.
e. lack of professionalism in the NCO corps.
f. The national guard is too political and it sucks.
g. the draft is unfair.
h. blatant racism.
I. too much apple polishing and politics (refer to d.)
j. tactical doctrine is stuck on stupid.
Are all tiny details that a larger US economy & industry will simply steam roll over IMO (for WWII, the politics one will linger on).
 
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marathag

Banned
Bettendorf Steel Company in the Quad Cities had a rough time in the Depression, the slowed Railroad business effected their rolling stock sales, their foundry that could do 25 ton pours, was idle: closed in 1932. Not a good end for what had been in 1920, the largest railroad car manufacturer west of the Mississippi, employing over 3000 workers, vertically integrated so raw materials came into one end of the complex, and finished cars out the other end. Bettendorf was a real company town(city was named after the owners, Joseph and William Bettendorf), when the plant closed, there was little else for employment opportunities.

OTL the grounds were bought in 1942 to make the Bettendorf Tank Arsenal, for the planned M7 Light Tank.
Mismanagement by International Harvester and a shifting design meant only Seven Tanks were made here.

So wave an FDR inspired Magic Wand, and in 1934 as a jobs program the Bettendorf Tank Arsenal is born, the build tanks and other Army vehicles designed and prototyped at the Rock Island Arsenal.
Unlike the later Detroit Tank Arsenal, would be able to cast and heat treat armor onsite.
As there was not much need for high production numbers for tanks quite yet, they would be doing castings for other companies for frames and transmission and axle housing, going back to the company's origin, of 'Bettendorf Axle'

Anyway, when 1939 rolls around, the US has a plant that can build heavy to light tanks, with little retooling needed, for US or 'Cash and Carry' use once Neutrality Laws are lifted.
 

McPherson

Banned
Is the big issue US was already the significantly the biggest nation economically (and therefore in defence production capability) even with massive unemployment and dislocation from the depression solving that earlier simply makes them 25+% better come WWII and simply makes everything else trivial......
Hum 1933 I'm not understanding/getting this sentence? Simply building in a large way perfectly legally from 1 JAN 1937 with the collapse of quantitative limits in 2LNT will sort out any navy issues.

Are all tiny details that a larger US economy & industry will simply steam roll over IMO (for WWII, the politics one will linger on).
I goofed. Typo. It happens. 1943.
 
This is a tall order McP. Considering the politics of the time in the U.S. and the economic effects of the Great Depression I don't think there is any feasible ( believable) way to effect these kind of expensive large scale changes. It took the shockingly quick fall of France to galvanize the American government into the Two-Ocean Navy Act.

Something would have to happen in the mid to late 1930s to annoy or scare the Americans into opening up the treasury to much heavier defense spending. What would that be?

fester's Keynes Cruisers time line discusses domestic politics freeing up some more money for defense spending. But to achieve the larger changes suggested here would require a more powerful catalyst of some kind. A much bigger USS Panay type of incident for example?
 

Driftless

Donor
Earlier start on the two-ocean navy, using the Keyne's Cruisers model. Spread the spending around to shipyards on all three coasts and the Great Lakes. It's politically sold as a jobs program as well as naval preparedness. More Destroyers and other small warships, along with freighters, and oilers that can be called to national service if needed.
 
6. Not letting its Pacific fleet get blown up napping.

The Pacific Fleet did not get blown up napping, most ships in the Pacific Fleet were not damaged at all during the PH attack. Specifically eight old battleships of dubious value in modern naval combat were sunk or damaged (two were total losses), a target ship was lost, two destroyers were lost, two destroyers were damaged (back in the fleet by June 1942), three cruisers were lightly damaged, an antique minelayer capsized, and a tugboat, a repair ship, and a seaplane tender all received moderate damage and were repaired in a few months.

It's worth noting that of the 20 ships sunk or damaged during the PH attack - six were total losses and that includes a target ship and an old minelayer, and eight of the ships damaged were back in the fleet by February.

The horrific loss of life was the worst part but in terms of material losses to the US Navy, the Pacific Fleet's ability to actually wage modern naval warfare was not impacted one bit.
 
The Pacific Fleet did not get blown up napping, most ships in the Pacific Fleet were not damaged at all during the PH attack. Specifically eight old battleships of dubious value in modern naval combat were sunk or damaged (two were total losses), a target ship was lost, two destroyers were lost, two destroyers were damaged (back in the fleet by June 1942), three cruisers were lightly damaged, an antique minelayer capsized, and a tugboat, a repair ship, and a seaplane tender all received moderate damage and were repaired in a few months.

It's worth noting that of the 20 ships sunk or damaged during the PH attack - six were total losses and that includes a target ship and an old minelayer, and eight of the ships damaged were back in the fleet by February.

The horrific loss of life was the worst part but in terms of material losses to the US Navy, the Pacific Fleet's ability to actually wage modern naval warfare was not impacted one bit.
Okay, I admit I know all that and you're right. Also, I'd add that all the ships save Arizona, Oklahoma and... I know there's one more, still on the bottom, but I forget... saw action in the war, which shows how hollow my attempt at being glib was.
 

McPherson

Banned
This is a tall order McP. Considering the politics of the time in the U.S. and the economic effects of the Great Depression I don't think there is any feasible ( believable) way to effect these kind of expensive large scale changes. It took the shockingly quick fall of France to galvanize the American government into the Two-Ocean Navy Act.

Well, part of the purpose of this thread is to suggest small things that can lead to a better start point for Uncle in 1941.
Something would have to happen in the mid to late 1930s to annoy or scare the Americans into opening up the treasury to much heavier defense spending. What would that be?

A more alert American electorate is probably all that is needed. But to get it, you have to prime the news media to do their jobs. It is amazing that in news reels that FDR has to use maps and charts to explain during the years 1939-1941 exactly why isolationism is not going to work. It is a recurring American 20th century theme. Either the American people are told "we have to protect the dominoes" or they are told "that problem is over there, and it is none of our business to be involved" in the messages. Nobody, except FDR as far as I can tell, told the truth, or explained WHY the USG leadership wanted to follow a policy that might torque off a large % of the American people during that century. You need that truth or as close to it as the leaders understand it, to convince the people that they have to do something, or it will have dire consequences for them. How are they to tell the difference between Krystal Nacht and the Gulf of Tonkin, otherwise?

Part of that reason for all the lying could be this bastard.

Woodrow-Wilson-photo-loc.jpg


Source: http://stuffnobodycaresabout.com/2015/11/03/roosevelt-taft-wilson-sounded-like/


He was a rotten racist liar and poltroon. You might think the inventor of the 14 Points and the League of Nations would not invade Mexico, meddle in other countries, lecture foreign states about their colonial imperialism, and LIE about Black Tom or the fact that German saboteurs were putting bombs in the coal bunkers of American merchant ships?

Anyway, that rat bastard and his administration, fed the American people a "hate the Hun" propaganda campaign of lies. Goebbels would have wished he was that good. Dutifully, because the people still trusted their government then, they marched off to the Western Front, where that idiot's administration demonstrated by policy and incompetence, that they were worse than the McKinley bozos who fucked up the Spanish American War, and got the American WWI army chopped up in the trenches.

WWI lessons learned.
a. man-portable machine gun.
b. grenades.
c. staffwork.
d. officer corps sucks.
e. lack of professionalism in the NCO corps.
f. The national guard is too political and it sucks.
g. the draft is unfair.
h. blatant racism.
I. too much apple polishing and politics (refer to d.)
j. tactical doctrine is stuck on stupid.

The US Army puttered around with this:
1593706712889.png

T23E1 *(Springfield Arsenal cataloque) from 1934 onward to 1942.

The rest of the stuff in that list was either copy the German potato masher or institute personnel policies and administrative reform... mostly. And tabletop exercises like the USN was doing to figure out its problems at the NAVAL WAR COLLEGE. That was why Elihu Root established the ARMY WAR COLLEGE in 1903 after the Navy got theirs in 1888.

The rest of it.

a. chemistry, explosives manufacture is out of date.
b. metallurgy, the armor plate is wrong.
c. aviation, can you say maybe reaction engines?
d. metallurgy, high temperature engine components.
e. rockets, paging Mr. Karman and Mr. Goddard?
f. physics of sound, and light. (Earlier FIDO, and Cutie, get a multi-channel sonar, RADAR, and how about sonobuoys and seeing in the dark?)

was stuff that would be harder to do, because not only did the American people want to avoid another "trap" like Wilson led them into, but they also bought into the mostly true WAR PROFITEER myth that emerged as a lesson learned from WWI.

Government investment in war technology is going to be a HARD sell for the generation that was snookered into WWI by lies. So whatever is pushed has to be civil application that can be adapted for military use in an emergency.
a. fertilizers
b. bridge building steels
c. fast civil aviation aircraft
d. same again
e. weather research into the upper atmosphere
f. navigation and weather at sea. THIS is actually done as sonobuoys and FIDO grow out of US development of automated floating weather buoys dumped into the Atlantic as part of a hurricane warning system!

fester's Keynes Cruisers time line discusses domestic politics freeing up some more money for defense spending. But to achieve the larger changes suggested here would require a more powerful catalyst of some kind. A much bigger USS Panay type of incident for example?

Just tell the truth. And show the American people in small ways, things in the civilian sector that they will suddenly discover have enormous applications in wartime. Actual real
time examples were:

1. New Deal programs that built infrastructure and disciplined the work force.
2. Dual use applied technology that first shows up in government services or private industry as a better way to do things.
3. Industrial, civil administration and legal reform. There is a three for one that directly applies to the army.
 
I was born in 57 so definitely no first hand knowledge here but worked with a lot of guys that retired in late 80s and were in WW 2 and teenagers in the 30s,several were knowledgeable about navy and army.What I got from them was that Japanese mortars were real bad,German infantry weapons too,and they wish early on that our torpedoes were better,also one guy was pissed to find out that Goddard had developed a bazooka type rocket in 20s.Of course all this is Monday morning quarterbacking,and like the above author wrote,the populace had been snookered by the government with WW 1,Prohibition and the Depression,Dust Bowl,I'm sure there wasn't a lot of trust built up in the big shots.
 
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Driftless

Donor
A more alert American electorate is probably all that is needed.

Yup. The mid-1930's US electorate wasn't in the same spot that their parents and grandparents were. Most educated Americans to that point had the George Washington adage of "avoid foreign entanglements" drilled into them as a foundation piece of foreign policy from the founding of the Republic onward into WW2. That idea really made sense for a weak startup country coming off a hard-fought revolution/civil war in the 1775-1780's. Why pick another fight across the Atlantic with world powers - if you can avoid it? To reinforce that look inward viewpoint, there was the painful leadup to and the civil war and ongoing Indian wars. We were too busy shooting ourselves to pieces to tackle playing with the 'big boys' in Europe. Another element would be the massive influx of immigrants from Europe in the 19th Century, some coming for an opportunity, others fleeing famine and revolutions. Those folks wanted no part of Europe at that point.

It's maybe not till the full-blown expansion of the industrial revolution and those immigrants integrating into the general society in the later 19th Century that people would have been ready to think beyond the ocean moats - including acting to those points you raised. The US wasn't the 98lb economic weakling of its youth anymore - even if its military wasn't up to foreign power-projection yet.
 

McPherson

Banned
Yup. The mid-1930's US electorate wasn't in the same spot that their parents and grandparents were. Most educated Americans to that point had the George Washington adage of "avoid foreign entanglements" drilled into them as a foundation piece of foreign policy from the founding of the Republic onward into WW2. That idea really made sense for a weak startup country coming off a hard-fought revolution/civil war in the 1775-1780's. Why pick another fight across the Atlantic with world powers - if you can avoid it? To reinforce that look inward viewpoint, there was the painful leadup to and the civil war and ongoing Indian wars. We were too busy shooting ourselves to pieces to tackle playing with the 'big boys' in Europe. Another element would be the massive influx of immigrants from Europe in the 19th Century, some coming for an opportunity, others fleeing famine and revolutions. Those folks wanted no part of Europe at that point.

To reinforce that excellent series of points, how would the discovery of how they were conned by the Wilson administration and presumably the allies to enter the war, go over with the generation that fought WWI? Kind of reinforces the "isolationism" I would think? I mean Wilson could have told the truth and tried to persuade the people of the necessity, but Mister Morality thought he knew so much better than John Q. Citizen. So Wilson played it the chicane way and there appears to have been considerable blowback, and I do not just mean from this fella.

It's maybe not till the full-blown expansion of the industrial revolution and those immigrants integrating into the general society in the later 19th Century that people would have been ready to think beyond the ocean moats - including acting to those points you raised. The US wasn't the 98lb economic weakling of its youth anymore - even if its military wasn't up to foreign power-projection yet.

It is regrettable that while the people grew up, the American government right through WWII never did.
 
Okay, I admit I know all that and you're right. Also, I'd add that all the ships save Arizona, Oklahoma and... I know there's one more, still on the bottom, but I forget... saw action in the war, which shows how hollow my attempt at being glib was.
We righted the Oklahoma in 1943 she sank while under tow to the West Coast to be scrapped in 1947. The Utah and the Arizona are the ships which remain on the Bottom of Pearl Harbor
 
Take advantage of watching what the combatants are doing and learn from their experiences. Such as convoys in the Atlantic instead of easily picked off single ships to prevent the second happy time, get some observers into Russia to look at T34s, sloped armour etc. How to use radar effectively, night fighting at sea, all could have been learnt before the US fired a shot.
 

McPherson

Banned
Take advantage of watching what the combatants are doing and learn from their experiences. Such as convoys in the Atlantic instead of easily picked off single ships to prevent the second happy time, get some observers into Russia to look at T34s, sloped armour etc. How to use radar effectively, night fighting at sea, all could have been learnt before the US fired a shot.

1. The British Board of Control took longer to traffic control and administer convoy (1939-1941) than 10th Fleet (1941-1942). People forget that one. BUT 10th Fleet should have stood up pre-war and been ready once hostilities started. Part of the Neutrality Patrol I think would have been a good idea. So you have an excellent case.
2. Design and History of the Sherman Tank in WWII.

Summary; The Sherman tank used bits of French, British, and American evolved mechanical practice and lessons learned. The Sherman was an Americanized British cruiser tank that was FANTASTIC at what it was asked to do. The glacis was well sloped. The French derived gun was better than anything out there for general purpose systems of systems warfare as practiced at the time. Mobility was a long exhaustive process that finally settled on speed and simplicity of manufacture of track layer components. The T-34 Christie type suspension took time. the transmission setup was obsolete and fragile. The T-34 sloped armor as well the Christie suspension robbed internal work space volume. (ergonomics): so, yeah. The tank is needed now, and the time and resources to make it fast and effective means one grabs ideas from off the shelf from anybody and cobbles it together.

The Sherman 75 by some miracle could stand up and fight Tigers and kill the German tanks. In combat when it, as the Sherman 76, fought the T-34/85, it handed the Russian tank its ass. The major credit goes to tank crews for the outcomes, but the tank just mechanically outperformed the T-34 in mobility, ergonomics and first sight-first shot-first kill.

3. The USN is learning how to knife fight with RADAR to lay guns onto a target in a surface battle before the British ever did. Those battles in Iron Bottom Sound were radar aided gun and torpedo battles. The Bismarck hunt, Teleuda and Matapan were 100% optical director aimed gun fights. RADAR was used in those situations to locate blobs but optics were used to lay shells onto the target. Now North Cape was an RN radar battle with radar to spot splashes (December 1943). The Americans had already fought Guadalcanal 1 and 2 in November 1942 and that fighting was radar directed as well as optical directed gunfire. It just depended on which American ship had fire control radar. Washington used her radar to lay on and KILL Kirishima.

4. Now the USN SHOULD have paid attention to British night fighting practice (opticals or not), because the British TAUGHT the Japanese how to backlight with plane dropped flairs and use float planes to spot fire and be situation aware at night
.
The IJN were good pupils. The USN got their asses kicked. War-game fights with the RN would have helped a lot pre-war.
 
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