N/A

The lack of a Profumo scandal has interesting implications, With Wilson replaced by Brown, and the Tories rampant, I wonder if they could win a fourth term in 1964?

Glad to see the Beatles broken up, will any of them go on to do anything successful with their careers? Or is a descent back into mediocrity guaranteed?

Eagerly awaiting the next update.

EDIT- and quite alright for proof reading. Was the ironic death one I proposed? I'm a forgetful bastard, what can i say...
 
I always look forward to new installments of this story. Few others have the same expansive quality to them.

“Doesn’t he look tired?”

- Harold Wilson to James Callaghan, regarding Hugh Gaitskell, 1962

That's a clever little Doctor Who homage.
 
Brilliant update as always. At this time Southern Rhodesia was experiencing record white (mostly British but also Greek and Southern European) immigration. Does this earlier and bigger crisis effect that?
 

Thande

Donor
That's a clever little Doctor Who homage.
Argh, that's the third time I've had to tell people that that line was Doctor Who referencing the real life fall of Thatcher!

Great update as usual 037771, although I will have to kill you for your vendetta against the Beatles...
 
The lack of a Profumo scandal has interesting implications, With Wilson replaced by Brown, and the Tories rampant, I wonder if they could win a fourth term in 1964?

I think we can presume that something ensures a Tory defeat in '64.

Even though what are now widely seen as the damaging moral, social and economic developments of the sixties mainly belong to the period of Labour Government after 1964, the first years of the decade were nonetheless ones of drift and cynicism, for which the Conservatives must be held in large part responsible.

- Extract from Margaret Thatcher: The Path to Power
 
Awesome. Im not sure what's going to happen to the Democrats at this point. The southern Demorats don't seem any closer to becoming GOP because of Nixons hard stance on civil rights, and they can't stay with the lefty wing of the Democrats much longer. A split maybe? :)
 

Thande

Donor
Another good update. Interesting how small changes lead to things that in OTL were small spats blowing up into big conflicts, as well as the other way around.
 
After seeing your and Thande's discussion of the space program on the previous page (and noting the lack of coverage it had gotten to that point), I felt that I actually had something to contribute to this timeline aside from "great job!".

There are a couple of key things to recognize about the space program prior to Kennedy's speech. First, and perhaps foremost, since Eisenhower there has been a significant divide between the civilian and military space programs, in every area. Dyna-soar and "Blue" Gemini (or Apollo) were not competitors to NASA's programs, but rather parallel and separate programs. For the timeline, this means that the continuation of the former program is not prejudicial to the continuation of Mercury/Apollo.

And that leads to the second major point. Apollo predated Kennedy in almost all major respects. It was supposed to be a vehicle that could be used for earth orbital and circumlunar missions (akin to Apollos 7 and 8, as well as the Skylab missions), with some notion of adding a lunar landing capability at some future point, past 1970 most likely. At the time, NASA was hewing somewhat closely to the von Braun idea of building up a launch infrastructure and a station in LEO before dispatching astronauts to the Moon. Had this plan been followed, a series of Block I Apollos launched on Saturn IBs would have performed the sorts of missions that IOTL were performed by Geminis; without the pressure of the Moon race, they would most likely not have suffered the severe flaws of the OTL Block I Apollos (which are better known for the Apollo I fire than anything else). The Saturn V would most likely not have been built at all, with instead the Saturn C-3 or something intermediate between the C-3 and C-4 being selected as the US' heavy lift vehicle. Capable of use in the von Braun-supported EOR lunar landing architecture, and less overwhelming than the Saturn V in the sorts of missions that would actually be performed.

Third, some type of race was likely but not predetermined; ITTL, with the great foreign policy successes of the Nixon administration, I think the President can get away with not responding much to Soviet space spectaculars, especially with their major proponent (Khrushchev) having been ousted much earlier, and Congress won't really push anything of their own. I shan't like to be Chelomei ITTL either, given the more violent ouster (IOTL, he was rather in bed with Khrushchev; he hired his son, for example). Thus, the space program will probably look rather more like what this or this Eisenhower-era report envisioned, and what I briefly described in the last paragraph; a gradual development of space using mostly Apollo/Saturn hardware, with no all-out race to the Moon or anything of that sort.
 
Hmm. That's because, at the moment, I'm confined in what I write by the source material available to me. Beforehand, with all the French and Indonesian material, I had the whole of the Maughan Library to plunder. During the summer holidays, I'm stuck at home. This doesn't mean I completely lack sources; it's just that I'm overwhelmed by the ubiquity of actors biographies and works on international relations.

I rely a lot on JSTOR, but so far I haven't seen anything on there that'll adequately (and in a simple fashion) introduce a layman to space travel in the early 1960s. I have had consultation with another member who had the kindness to PM me out of the blue, but that's as far as I've gotten, because realistically I'll only be able to concentrate on space travel in October.

JSTOR probably isn't the best source for space history in the first place, anyways. The NASA History website is a really excellent resource for that sort of thing, and totally and completely free. It's got a number of full-length history books available as PDFs or online. Obviously, it's NASA-only, though.

Could you possibly give me a just-as-detailed description of Soviet space ambitions (in terms of specific models of rocket, goals etc)? That would help enormously.

The problem is your removal of Khrushchev, which really mucks things up enormously. The Soviet human spaceflight program had no really specific goal until rather later, instead being driven by the whims, more or less, of the General Secretary. Even later it was more or less reactionary to the US program almost up to the end of the Union itself (witness Buran).

The biggest thing to recognize about the Soviet program, as opposed to the US program, is that it was not a centrally-managed organization that had a goal and was reaching for it. Instead, it was a viper's nest of intrigue and overlapping fiefdoms where each design bureau head usually had his own ideas about what the program should be doing, especially the top three: Korolev (head of OKB-1), Glushko (head of OKB-456, and later OKB-1), and Chelomei (head of OKB-52). This led to constant infighting that seriously crippled the Soviet program. Probably the most prominent example of this infighting is the refusal by Glushko to build the large cryogenic (meaning kerosense/liquid oxygen) engines needed for Korolev's N1, forcing the latter to employ a different, much less experienced design bureau. That took place before the POD, too.

Chelomei, in particular, was a relative newcomer to the whole space scene, and was relying on the patronage of Khrushchev to break into it. He even went so far as to employ his son, Sergei as an engineer. With the earlier and more violent fall of Khrushchev from power, I imagine Chelomei is left in a difficult position. Most likely, as IOTL, he gets marginalized after this, although not completely removed from the space program. One significant effect this might have is effectively killing his UR-500 rocket, which had just started development. It's better known as the Proton, and since the mid 1960s has been the medium-lift workhorse of the Soviet and later Russian space programs. What might take its place would be a downrated version of the N1 which (while having a deserved reputation for problems) would likely do a bit better ITTL, where there is no race pressure or anything of that sort. It does depend a bit on whether or not Mishin is Korolev's successor though. And yes, there will be a successor; Korolev's operating table death was only a proxy for massively metastized colon cancer, among other health problems. It's very unlikely that he could have survived much past 1966 or 1967 in any case.

So, all that left aside, what will the Soviet space program look like? Most likely, much like and yet unlike the historical one. I expect that the Vostok program will continue, in the near term, for a few more flights to demonstrate certain capabilities (rendezvous, for example), but will not be followed by the Voskhod program (which was pure propaganda). Instead, like the Americans, there will be a gap until 1966 or 1967 when the first of their definitive spacecraft, in this case the Soyuz (probably), will fly. Like the Americans, this will demonstrate all the important things that couldn't be demonstrated by Vostok (and speaking of the Americans, the Mercury program is likely to drag on a bit longer than it actually did with a series of 1-3 day duration flights in late 1962 and early 1963.). That means they'll probably rely on R-7s (another Korolev product) throughout the program. Sometime around 1970 or so, the N1 is likely to have its first failure, but if they do get it to work it would probably end up being as vital to the Soviet program as the Saturn C-2/C-3 will likely be to the American program.

And, of course, to get off the theme of rockets and capsules, you should probably take into account the robotics programs, such as planetary exploration, spy satellites, communications satellites, weather satellites, and so forth. For spy satellites, Dwayne Day's articles in The Space Review are an excellent starting point (and, for the purposes of TTL, probably more than enough). For civilian satellites, the '60s were an important time, when most of them were first flying. The first weather satellite was actually launched in 1960, and they were followed up at a high rate. It's about the right time for space-based hurricane tracking and the like to start, IOW.

Robotic exploration, like the Soviet program, is probably going to look quite similar yet dramatically different ITTL. Most of the differences will probably be in the lunar exploration program, which was heavily warped IOTL to service Apollo. Without those pressures, the Ranger program is probably longer and more elaborate; among other things, JPL wanted to hard-land a small capsule of instruments on the Moon in later flights, which might actually happen here. The Surveyor and Lunar Orbiter programs, furthermore, might not even exist as such. A Surveyor-like program is likely, but Lunar Orbiter might be replaced by or or more lunar orbit missions (akin to Apollo 8) that fly some type of mapping equipment to the Moon (there were plans to do so IOTL, should the Lunar Orbiter imagery prove inadequate). Similarly, instead of leaving Venus to the Russians, ITTL we might dispatch landers and orbiters to the planet starting in the late 1960s. Most of the difference will probably come in somewhat more abundant funding compared to the human program, without the pressures imposed by Apollo IOTL.
 
Always happy to help with editing.

Bit of a general question about the TL here- which members of Nixon's team ITTL were not present IOTL? And which ARE present in the 1960s, who were not in the OTL 1970s?

Just curious, really.
 
I can't tell if Nixon's doing better then Kennedy or not? :D

Anyway, nice to see the stunted Civil Rights Movement (well not really but you know what I mean).
 
Now, the entire world watches Laos, to see whether freedom will reign, or die smothered by the menace of international Communism…

Melodramatic much?

And, er, I hate to whine about someone else's TL, but the updates...they are huuuuge. Especially with the footnotes, it is easy to get lost. I, for one, would be perfectly happy with shorter but more frequent updates, if that is possible & practical for you. Of course, if you don't want to do that, that's fine. I'm just bringing it up.

EDIT: Also, it seems that the internal footnote links might not work. They don't for me (they just send me to the front page of the forums).
 
EDIT: Also, it seems that the internal footnote links might not work. They don't for me (they just send me to the front page of the forums).

What I tend to do when reading this TL is have it open in two tabs- one of which with the TL, the other with the footnotes. That way, I can look at both nice and easily!
 

Thande

Donor
Another great update. One minor thing, you seem to be missing footnote [xlix] or 49. (I use the same technique for looking at the footnotes as BG, incidentally).

I suspect the Democratic Party may actually fracture in TTL, not just because of the whole liberals vs southern segregationists aspect but from the titles of some of the books the ATL quotes are taken from.
 
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