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I was wondering where the TL of the German Revolution is; I intend to use its POD to help a history essay im planning. Any help would be very much appreciated!:):eek:

Do you mean the OTL timeline ? There is a whole website dedicated to 1848 with loads of articles

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
:rolleyes:

Lovely.:rolleyes:.....no, I remember there was one of it succeeding on this board, just dont know where it is.......
Well... let's see... DoD and Apartheid Superpower both have '48 succeed, altough the results are quite different between them, and DoD's revolution is affected by the different Bund, obviously.
As for one where 1848 is the POD... I don't think I've seen a TL about it. Lots of discussion, but not a TL, as such.
 
Carlton bach did something with a more successful 1848 in general; do a search for it and it should show up.
 
Best bet would be Frederick William IV accepting the Imperial Crown. At that, we get an early unified Germany, no reactionary backlash, and a fairly liberal German Empire. Or, rather, Empire of the Germans, considering the imperial style proposed to Fred Bill Four. ;)
 

General Zod

Banned
Prussia accepting the lead of the German Empire would be a good start.

Of course, the 1848 German Revolution could not be said to be really successful unless Cisleithania, too, is safely brought in the bosom of the new Empire.

To accomplish that, you need to break the power of the Habsburg for good, which requires them losing Hungary and/or Italy for good, so Vienna and Prague shall choose a Prussian-led Grossdeutchsland.

Some PoDs:

Sensing the mood, a Polish Great Revolt erupts in 1848 (either delay the one of 1831 or advance the one of 1863), so the czar is too busy to interven in Hungary and it breaks away for good.

The Hungarian Diet is more quick to recall the Hungarian regiments, so Radetsky loses the First Italian War of Independence.

As above, but Radetsky loses at Custoza so the Piedmontese advance and link with the Venetian patriots, Austria loses Veneto and Trento and begs for peace. The Habsburg Empire loses face completely and collapse.

Either way, the defeated Habsburg don't have the troops, nor the appeal, to manage a repression of the Vienna liberals, so when the German Empire is proclaimed, Austria joins too.
 
To accomplish that, you need to break the power of the Habsburg for good, which requires them losing Hungary and/or Italy for good, so Vienna and Prague shall choose a Prussian-led Grossdeutchsland.
There is another option. Strengthen the Habsburgs, so that the Crown is offered to them, and not the Hohenhollzerns.
 

General Zod

Banned
There is another option. Strengthen the Habsburgs, so that the Crown is offered to them, and not the Hohenhollzerns.

Yes, this option admittedly exists. However, it is rather more difficult to realize, for a variety of reasons:

The Habsburg had very little credibility as leaders of a liberal German Empire since they, along with Russia, had been the standard-bearers of the legitimist conservative order up to the fall of Metternich.

For all the centuries they had been Emperors, their dynasty had consistently neglected any effort to unite Germany in favour of aggrandizing their dynastic state.

In 1848, their Empire looked like it was falling apart.

In order to accept the Imperial Crown, they would have insisted to bring all their non-German possession in the Empire, and besides the Czechs (special case, historically they had always been part of the HRE), few German liberals wanted to break the national unity of the new EMpire with all those different nationalities. Yes, there were possible workarounds for this problem, such as setting up a personal union between Cisleithania (in the Empire), and the rest (without), but would had they the potical intellgience for this solution ?

In view of this difficulties, I'd say that Hapsburg-led Grossdeutchsland 18148 Empire is possible but rather more difficult than Prussian-led one, which only requires a change of heart of Frederick William IV (reasonable if he really sees the Habsburg Empire falling apart) and Hungary breaking away fro good. Instrad, the Habsburg solution would require a liberal, charismatic, and insightful Habsburg scion that could tak the leadership of the German Revolution, against the tradition of his family, and accept the crown. Archduke Johann of Austria could have been a possibility, but then his success would have required both Austria and Prussia to fall completely to liberal revolution.
 
The Habsburg had very little credibility as leaders of a liberal German Empire since they, along with Russia, had been the standard-bearers of the legitimist conservative order up to the fall of Metternich.
Very true. While Metternich often gets much blame for the reactionary movement in the post-Napoleonic world, it was truly Emperor Francis who concocted, and enacted the policy of ultra-conservatism, and exercised it in Europe through Metternich.
Oddly, for all the times he's been called a conservative politician, Metternich always considered himself a liberal and pragmatist, in his personal writings.
 
Cheers mate, although I myself find Carlton Bach's suppositions unrealistic. :)

Well, it is a roleplaying scenario, so all this stuff about nuclear-armed Apartheid South Africa and unified Europe is narrativium-based. But I do think the revolution had a chance.

What are the major PODs during 1848 that can have the revolution actually succeed (i.e. the Frankfurt Parliament at the very least surviving longer)?

Events in Berlin are going to be key here IMO. The Habsburgs were preoccupied with their own domains and would most likely not have interfered with events ourtside their borders if Bavaria had objected. Bavaria is a good candidate for a moderate constitutional government itself, and even if not - they don't much like the Austrians. So if you can take the Prussian military out of the equation, there is a chance that the legitimists will be more willing to accept compromises. It's hard to see how. I looked at Berlin and saw no way this could turn into a serious Commune-style uprising. If itz did, that could do the trick: regiments of Preussuian grenadiers dashed against the barricades and bleeding white in house-to-house fighting, angry demonstrations in other cities as details of atrocities surface, unrest in some garrisons, just enough to make the king doubt his ability to trust the army.
 
The POD for a successful '48 in Germany needs to be far earlier: A different Prussian King, one who is willing to take the crown from the Frankfurt delegates.

If you have the Prussian King accept the Imperial Crown, then the Prussian Army can snap into action, marching across Germany, greeted as "liberators" everywhere they go. German princes flee their countries, and Europe looks on in amazement, disgust, and fear.

Once Germany is united under the new German Kaiser (what was the exact title?), the Frankfurt Parliament finds that the Prussian King is setting up the new Reich's administration with very little of their input. When the Parliament attempts to assert itself, the Emperor dismisses them, with the encouragement of some Prussian bayonets.

Its 1852. Germany is united, and its constitution is getting rewritten by the Prussian Junkers. Whose ready for a Bismarck who already has a united Germany?!
 

Susano

Banned
A subverted 1848? Nasty thought, but possible. Though no t as easily as you describe it.

First off, the 1848 constitution was democratic. It would only be the Emperors government in the same sense as Browns government is Her Majestys government, that is de facto not really. The monarchs were to gain a delaying veto, so they could strangle the politcial process to a degree, but nothing more. Hence, the Emperor couldnt simply build up a junker government. Of course, since it are his armies marching what he could do is a coup d'etat. But that wouldnt be a 1848 Germany then of course, but a "Successful German Union (Erfurt Union)" scenario, where the smaller mnarchs follow Prussia out of fear of new revolutions.

And then theres the question wether Russia and Austria will allow that. Germany can easily stand against either of them apart, but taken together... so, a sucessful 1848 in Germany also does require a more successful 1848 in Hungary, to keep both Austria and Russia occupied.

Of course, with an early enough PoD we could have a through and through idealistic liberal Prussian King. Its unlikely, but still probable enough as a PoD. And hey, why shouldnt Germany have a stroke of luck. I mean, at least once. For a change ;)

Another possibility is (again assuming Austria and Russia are occupied in Hungary) a more competent Paulskirche Parliament, who manages to organise a levee en masse against the Prussian interventions and then manages to conquer Prussia. The questions of constitutional law and who gets to be Emperor are still there, then, of course, but with Prussia knocked down it could very well suceed. Ive suggested this possibilkoty twice before, and as then my suggestion for Emperor would be the House of Meran ;) This is of course nozt all that likely, but possible. After all, the French Revolutionary mass armies beat down most of Europe, why shouldnt German revolutionary mass armies be able to do the same to just Prussia?

Btw, the title is indeed "Deutscher Kaiser" (German Emperor, for all the connotatoions it has acquired in English, Kaiser just means Emperor), both in the 1848 constitution and in the 1870 Empire.
 
So I was thinking that the Prussian King (the underhanded, undemocratic unifier, sorry Susano) marches his Army across Germany in support of the Frankfurt Parliament. By sending the Army in support of the Frankfurt Parliament, the Prussian King is going to be able to directly annex the German Princes' statelets into the new German Empire.

The Prussian troops are cheered across Germany (at least I think they would be) as the "liberators" of Germany, after all the Prussian Army is marching towards a unified Germany.

Now I think the Prussian King would accept the Frankfurt Parliament for the time being, because it would serve his interests (it would be hard to turn on the body that gave him his crown- since the body is basically the source of his legitimacy).

Now maybe there is either a Russian or French intervention. That would be AWESOME for Germany. A levee en masse is passed in Frankfurt, but it turns out the only functioning military left is the Prussians, so they are in charge. The Prussian-controlled (as in the Prussian Army is renamed the German Army) Army is able to defeat the Russians through a combination of national fervor and military know-how.

Once the Germans have beaten off the interventions, the German Emperor asks for continued funding of the large, levee en masse raised army. Frankfurt doesn't like this. The German people support the doubly victorious Prussian Army (the Revolution and the War of Independence) and when the German Emperor dismisses Parliament, that is that.
 
A slightly OT question...
Is there any reliable information as to why Frederick William IV and his wife Elisabeth had no children?
 
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