my first ever WW2 timeline

The Norwegian Campaign

POD - April 8, 14.00 hours


  • A British Sunderland flying boat is on a recon mission in the North Sea in conditions of heavy rain. With the crew distracted by a joke told by the navigator, they fail to spot the German fleet heading for Trondheim and Narvik through the narrow opening in the clouds.

  • Admiral Forbes does not conclude that the Germans are trying to break out and over the following hours, both Gruppe 1 (Gneisenau, Scharnhorst, 10 destroyers) and Gruppe 2 (admiral Hipper, 4 destroyers) are intercepted. Gneisenau, the damaged Admiral Hipper and 6 destroyers are sunk, with the Scharnhorst heavily damaged and in urgent need of repairs.

April 9


  • Luftwaffe fails to spot the RN, now in a different position

  • Blucher sunk by the Oscarsborg Fortress, with heavy loss of life.

  • At the last moment Hitler cancels the invasion fearing a disaster that would shatter morale, should whatever Wehrmacht units that do land in Norway be trapped and destroyed

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So basically the British, who where between the Germans and their objectives or very close to their position wrongly concluded that the Germans were trying to break out into the Atlantic and thus headed west to intercept, leaving a clear opening for the Kriegsmarine. Here that doesn't happen, and the Germans get severely mauled and Hitler cancels the whole invasion at the last moment.

Wanted to check out the plausibility of this before going any further with the short time line I have in mind. If this is in any way impossible, I would gladly accept any other minor POD that delivers roughly the same outcome.
 
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Hmm...interesting. I'd say Hitler's move here would be hard to predict, as he always wanted his navy to win a grand victory, but he was also the one who had the Deutschland renamed to Lutzow for fear of losing a ship named after Germany. :p

Overall though, this would be an interesting PoD. The point of the British operations in Norway at the time was to try and draw the German's into attacking Norway by mining Norwegian waters against the ore trade, so by ending the German attack, the Nazi's are basically giving up on Swedish ore during the winter months. Overall there are many ways you could take this, so I'll make sure I follow.

It seems Scandinavia has been a common theme of WWII TL's lately, its pretty funny!

EDIT-I just realized though that by abandoning the invasion at this late a stage, he is essentially dooming the paratroopers who I beilve had already landed in Norway. Also, do the intercepted Task Force's include the Narvik force, or was that simply withdrawn?
 
With the paratroopers in place, and the LW dominating the Aalborg-Oslo route the invasion overall isn't in any particular danger even if the northern task forces abandon their mission or are destroyed since they could dog pile forces into Oslo to eventually overrun the country (it just would take longer than otl; and besides the french and british are going to have sickle cut to face in 30 days and will need to recall forces)
 
But Hitler has cancelled the invasion, so the Paras don't land.

Does Norway actually try to stay neutral in this? No germans are actually ashore, and they can always claim navigation errors or something around the loss of Blucher. I could see the Norwegians accepting that at face value, and hoping it all goes away.
 
But Hitler has cancelled the invasion, so the Paras don't land.

Does Norway actually try to stay neutral in this? No germans are actually ashore, and they can always claim navigation errors or something around the loss of Blucher. I could see the Norwegians accepting that at face value, and hoping it all goes away.

Hard to claim navigation error on the sinking of the Blucher, as it was currently halfway to Oslo sailing up a fjord.

Also, the paras were sent to land as a preliminary assault to the invasion, so I believe they would have landed by now.
 
Hard to claim navigation error on the sinking of the Blucher, as it was currently halfway to Oslo sailing up a fjord.

If reports are correct, then at least one British Army patrol in Ireland used that excuse.

According to the story the corproal in charge said

'I had hoped to make Sergeant but after this **** up thats out of the ******* window' or something along those lines.

A footnote said he did not suffer as a result of said navigation mistake.
 
If reports are correct, then at least one British Army patrol in Ireland used that excuse.

According to the story the corproal in charge said

'I had hoped to make Sergeant but after this **** up thats out of the ******* window' or something along those lines.

A footnote said he did not suffer as a result of said navigation mistake.

Oh the world of global politics....
 
decided to do a more detailed account to better create a situation where Hitler would order a retreat instead of dogpiling forces in Oslo. The main change is an earlier Norwegian cabinet meeting (owing to the naval clash brought on by the POD) where the disastrous decision for partial mobilization by post is averted, and Oslo instead issues a general mobilization and puts everyone on high alert.


The Norwegian Campaign


April 8

Gruppe 1, with Scharnhorst, Gneisenau and 10 destroyers are heading north towards Narvik, carrying 2000 troops of the 3 Mountain Division. North of their position is the battlecruiser Renown and her escorts, sailing south to intercept.

Further south lies a British group of 2 cruisers and 15 destroyers, and, separated from these, the destroyer Glowworm, originally part of Renown's escort, but which had been unable to keep up.

South still is Gruppe 2, with Admiral Hipper and 4 destroyers, carrying 1700 mountain troops bound for Trondheim, with the British Home Fleet in hot pursuit.


Shortly after dawn on the 8th, the Glowworm encounters 2 German destroyers and then the heavy cruiser Admiral Hipper. Unable to escape, she ineffectually launches all torpedoes at the German ship before ramming her, causing heavy damage. The Glowworm itself is sunk by Hippers guns.

Forbes orders the Renown to head south to Glowworms last known position, putting it on a collision course with Gruppe 1

POD - April 8, 14.00 hours

A British Sunderland flying boat is on a recon mission in the North Sea in conditions of heavy rain. With the crew distracted by a joke told by the navigator, they fail to spot the German fleet heading for Trondheim and Narvik through the narrow opening in the clouds


Admiral Forbes does not conclude that the Germans are trying to break out and all ships maintain course.

The first to make contact are Gruppe 2 and the British force of 2 cruisers and 15 destroyers. 1 German destroyer is damaged and Gruppe 2 heads south to evade destruction. The damaged destroyer however fails to keep up and is sunk. Heading south, they encounter the Home fleet. The damaged Admiral Hipper and her 3 destroyers are all sent to the bottom.


To the north, the Renown clashes with the Gneisenau and Scharnhorst. Gneisenau's fir-control systems are damaged and 1 German destroyer is sunk with the British also loosing 1 destroyer. Gruppe 1 attempts to head north-west, but the Renown successfully follows them.

Hours later, Gruppe 2 is intercepted by the british cruiser and destroyer group, now also accompanied by the Repulse. With the Germans sandwiched between the two fleets, they loose the Gneisenau and two further destroyers, with the rest scattering westward.

The Norwegian cabinet meets to discuss the situation (5 hours earlier than OTL). During the meeting, the decision is initially taken to enact partial mobilization. However, when asked how this would take place, defence minister Birtger Ljungberg explains that it would be carried out according to regulations in secret and by post. With this information, the cabinet decides to issue and immediate full mobilization, since it would be the only option that could be carried out in time, much to Ljungbers opposition.

April 9

  • German forces begin to occupy Denmark
  • With the general alarm raised, Norwegian forces manage to repel the German Fallschirmjager forces landing at the airbase at Sola near Stavanger. Instrumental to this was the only finished concrete bunker with a machine gun, which scored dozens of kills, as well as covering fire from Norwegian infantry, who managed to prevent one daring German paratrooper from hurdling a grenade into the bunker. Despite Me109 cover, the paratroopers soon found themselves in an untenable position and surrendered.
  • Scharnhorst and 5 destroyers switch course and head for Bergen, but encounter the remainder of the Home fleet, also sailing south. 1 German destroyer is sunk, but the Scharnhorst escapes any damage
  • With the British being just a few miles away, Gruppe 3 abandon their position west of Bergen and sail south hours before their attack on the harbor was to be launched
  • German transport Roda sunk by the Norwegian destroyer Sleipner off Stavanger

  • Blucher sunk by the Oscarsborg Fortress at 5:30 AM, with heavy loss of life. Deutschland damaged.
  • Luftwaffe attacks the Oscarsborg Fortress
  • Gruppe 5 unloads its troops in Sonsbukten, 19 km south of Oscarsborg
  • At 9.45, paratroopers still battle Norwegian infantry in the Oslo airport, although by now they are gaining the upper hand, with the Norwegians being mostly freshly mobilized recruits
  • Luftwaffe fails to spot the RN, now in a different position
  • At Kristiansand, coastal batteries damage the Karlsruhe and twice repulse the landing attempts by 10 AM (OTL Gruppe 4 finally managed to force a landing at 11 AM, only here it doesn't get the chance)
With the landing forces bound for Narvik and Trondheim almost totally destroyed, the one for Bergen forced to abandon and the ones at Kristiansand and Oslo apparently unable to make any headway, Hitler feared the worst, namely that should the Wehrmacht be seen as having lost in Norway, morale could suffer strong enough to prevent a successful invasion of France. If, however, it was all seen as a series of small naval battles, then the impact would be minimal. Plus, once France fell, victory would be his. No need to risk that with a futile attempt to take small towns and fjords he’d never heard about. So, at the last moment, Hitler cancels the invasion. The paratroopers at Oslo airport, still engaged in fighting, are ordered south to rendezvous with the forces there and then sail back to Germany, or, failing to do that, head for Sweden. Everyone else receives a general order to retreat back to base.
 

Hyperion

Banned
Still not very consistent.

The idea of the British getting the upper hand in several naval battles is plausible, but once the paratroopers and ground troops land anywhere, Hitler and the Germans are more committed than you are giving credit for.

At this point, even if Hitler calls off the invasion, he has guaranteed Norway will fall into the allied camp, or at the very least remain neutral but throw every bit of support possible to the allied cause.

Overall, this is a disaster for the Germans. It may not be a war winner for Britain, but the teath of the Kreigsmarine is gone now.
 
Still not very consistent.

The idea of the British getting the upper hand in several naval battles is plausible, but once the paratroopers and ground troops land anywhere, Hitler and the Germans are more committed than you are giving credit for.

At this point, even if Hitler calls off the invasion, he has guaranteed Norway will fall into the allied camp, or at the very least remain neutral but throw every bit of support possible to the allied cause.


I think Hitler once said something along the lines of "on land I am a hero, on sea a coward". Here, the impression is that the Kriegsmarine has failed him and that disaster was imminent, with none of the landings seeming to go as planned. The Germans knew that the success of Weserubung depended on surprise and on evading the Royal Navy and here, it appears that none of these conditions have been met.

With the Luftwaffe having failed to attack the RN due to butterflies, they're still unaware of its potential for destruction or for keeping British ships away from southern Norway. Naturally, a possibility would be for them to think "What is to stop the Home Fleet from sailing south and annihilating Gruppe 4 and 5 at Kristiansand and Oslo if these keep on trying to force landings despite (an apparent) heavy resistance" ?

Norway was just a side-show for Hitler anyway. Victory in France would bring the war to an end in his view, so no need to risk that by drastically lowering Wehrmacht morale for no gain.


Overall, this is a disaster for the Germans. It may not be a war winner for Britain, but the teath of the Kreigsmarine is gone now.
Well, it's not that disastrous.

  • Germany lost 1 heavy cruiser and 1 damaged, here they lost 2 and 1 damaged.
  • OTL they lost two light cruisers, here they only have 1 damaged.
  • 10 destroyers sunk OTL vs only 6 here
  • 6 U-boats lost vs none here
 

Hyperion

Banned
Actually for surface forces, this is a big blow. Blucher, Admiral Hipper, and the Gneisenau lost, along with eight destroyers.

Also, you haven't really taken into consideration operations but Royal Navy or other allied submarines who had forces in the region.

They know attacks are coming and the Germans have successfully landed in several areas. Even if they attacks are called off and the Germans evacuate, RN submarines can do quite a bit of damage.

Likewise, take into consideration the paratrooper losses, and the fact that a number of the sunkend Kreigsmarine ships have been sunk before they can unload the ground troops onboard. The Admiral Hipper force alone had 1,700 ground troops with it.

One thing to consider here, the chances of Hitler pulling a Sealion operation are considerably less now.

One big advantage of Norway holds, Germany will also not be able to easily attack convoys going to Murmansk, and the U-boats will not have forward bases in Norway to use.
 
Actually for surface forces, this is a big blow. Blucher, Admiral Hipper, and the Gneisenau lost, along with eight destroyers.

Likewise, take into consideration the paratrooper losses, and the fact that a number of the sunkend Kreigsmarine ships have been sunk before they can unload the ground troops onboard. The Admiral Hipper force alone had 1,700 ground troops with it.

True, the Kriegsmarine suffered, perhaps more so then OTL, but it by no means utterly destroyed. I also imagine that the loss of thousands of infantry on the sunk ships also played a small part i Hitlers decision to abort the invasion.

One big advantage of Norway holds, Germany will also not be able to easily attack convoys going to Murmansk, and the U-boats will not have forward bases in Norway to use.
Yes, but attacking those convoys was also a drain on German resources, not to mention the cost of occupying the place. About the U-Boat bases, where they really that important for anything other than use against the Arctic convoys, especially once they get hold of French bases ?

One thing to consider here, the chances of Hitler pulling a Sealion operation are considerably less now.
Absolutely, and it will have some consequences further down the road regarding British troop dispositions


Also, you haven't really taken into consideration operations but Royal Navy or other allied submarines who had forces in the region.

They know attacks are coming and the Germans have successfully landed in several areas. Even if they attacks are called off and the Germans evacuate, RN submarines can do quite a bit of damage.
The Polish Orzel did sink the transport ship Rio de Janeiro (before the POD), but other than that allied submarines failed to score any kills, especially because of the limited duration of the campaign
 
The Battle of France

10-16 May


  • Luftwaffe aircraft strike targets in the Low Countries and France
  • Fallschirmjager land in and around the Hague and Rotterdam enjoying great success, including the capture of Wilhemina and the Dutch government, taking advantage of the lack of any serious Dutch preparations
  • Brandenburger commando teams attempt to take bridges over the rivers IJssel and Maas, with most attacks being unsuccessful. Later Dutch reports about infiltrating German soldiers will cause a fifth column scare, especially in Belgium and France
  • Dutch commander Winkelman refuses to surrender and organizes counterattacks against the paratroopers
  • German forces begin advancing into Holland, Belgium and Luxembourg while Allied troops march north towards the Dyle line
  • Luxembourg surrenders
  • French 1st Army engages Hoepner’s Army Group A at Hannut inflicting some casualties on the Germans before withdrawing to Gembloux
  • Despite having somewhat stopped the Germans at the Dutch Water Line, Holland surrenders after a heavy bombing of Rotterdam
  • German forces begin crossing the Meuse at Sedan
  • Army Group A’s panzers again suffer a tactical defeat at Gembloux, although they once more inflict disproportionate casualties on the enemy
  • French forces attempt to plug the gap at Sedan after the Germans largely fail to make a crossing on the first day
  • After heavy fighting, the Germans finally break out of the bridgehead due west, although significant French forces remain to their south


16-21 May

  • Guderians panzers begin their race to the channel while the 10th Panzer and the Grossdeutschland engage French forces to the south
  • French 1st Army, having scored a tactical victory at Gembloux, is forced to withdraw upon hearing the news of the German breakthrough to the south
  • French 6th and 9th Armies collapse
  • Rommel’s 7th Panzer advances ahead of the main force but encounters the French 5th motorized infantry division on the 17 May at Avesnes-sur-Helpe. In the ensuing fighting, the 7th suffers heavily and is forced to stop and await reinforcements
  • The Belgian Army, the B.E.F and the French 1st Army, in a domino effect begin retreating as the Germans continue their advance behind the allied lines
  • 5th Panzer arrives at Avesnes-sur-Helpe and the Germans finally break through
  • 4th DCR led by De Gaulle twice tries to flank the German advance to no avail
  • Panzers reach Noyelles-sur-Mer, cutting of Allied forces
  • Gamelin launches a general counterattack by his 3 DLM’s and the BEF in the north and De Gaulle’s 4th DCR in the south. Coordination however is poor and numerous opportunities are missed. Despite this, the Anglo-French inflict some losses on the Germans before being forced to retreat
  • Allies break the Enigma code that had been changed three weeks ago.


22 May – 6 June


  • German High command panics and for a full day the Panzers halt while reinforcements catch up
  • Operation Dynamo begins
  • Gamelin is sacked and replaced with Weygand
  • Germans take Calais and Boulogne, suffering some casualties in the process
  • King Leopold surrenders all Belgian forces in the pocket
  • Weygand begins organizing a defensive line and employs a defense in depth, the hedgehog tactics
  • The Germans finally close the Dunkirk pocket and capture vast quantities of equipment, although most of the BEF and some French forces escape by sea
  • French cabinet reshuffle, with Weygand, De Gaulle and Petain brought in
  • On the 6 June, the Germans finally launch their offensive against the Weygand line

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more to come...
 
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