Mutual destruction at Jutland

[Saphroneth]

Is the 2.5 to 5 before or after the post Jutland/30s rebuilds ?
(not that it matters at Jutland they are still the best ships present)

JSB

The Barham page just said 2.5-5 inches.
I've looked at the QE page and it has this:



Upperdeck 2 to 1.25 inches from A–Y barbettes
Main deck: 1.25 inches at forward and aft ends
Middle deck: 1 inch (2 inches after Battle of Jutland)
Lower deck: 3 inches at extreme ends; 2.25 inches over steering gear; 1 inch forward

Note the change after Jutland. Remove that and we have:


Upper/main deck is 2-1.25 in
Middle is 1
Lower is 3-2.25-1

Not sure of the precise layout, though - it looks like the weakest possible combination is forward with 1.25 + 1 = 2.25 if the middle deck doesn't extend that far.

 

[ghappy1000]

It's mutual destruction, so maybe the HSF decides not to pull the 180-degree turn after seeing so many British ships blow up. Willingly charging a numerically superior fleet that's crossed your T is not going to end well.

This is my general opinion as well.

 

[ghappy1000]

'Something wrong with our ships'

As Rear Admiral Evan Thomas assumed control over the battle cruiser fleet following the loss of 4 battle cruisers and one the Royal Navy's best and newest battleships, he signalled that the Battle Cruiser Squadron of Vice Admiral Hood to assist him. En route, the battle cruisers detected the German scouting cruisers and Wiesbaden was crippled, after which the sinking was left to the armoured cruisers. The HMS Chester was detected by battle cruiser Lutzow [butterfly] and exploded after minutes while retreating from the battle having sustained damage from German cruisers.
Later, Hipper and Scheer linked their fleets and were heading towards Jellicoe. While attempting to accelerate Wiesbaden's demise, both 2 armoured cruisers were sunk with the loss of all hands. HMS Warspite was shelled by SMS Lutzow and was wrecked. Due to further damage to the rudders, the ship was unable to move and after made combat incapable, was scuttled the next day. SMS Lutzow sustained 10 shell hits on the hull, leading to its sinking the next day. Battle cruiser HMS New Zealand had to be sent to assist the battleship under fire, but was lost after landing a few hits on Lutzow.
The next tragedy to befall the battle cruisers would occur, with shells from Markgraf landing on HMS Princess Royal and detonating the turrets, sinking the ship with all hands. The Derrflinger sank the HMS Invincible and HMS Indomitable with all hands by 18 30 hours. HMS Inflexible would be the only battle cruiser left in the fleet, but the commander chose to engage Derrflinger and although inflicting severe damage, detonated before 19 00 hours with total loss of life. Rear Admiral Evan Thomas proclaimed that there must be something bloody wrong to the battle cruisers when he stopped receiving radio transmissions. HMS Tiger would be the only battle cruiser left for hours.

 

[Timmy811]

More than likely if that such event happened the Kaiser would sue for peace as the cost in blood would have been astronomical

The British would have lost twice as many men. Why would either fold?

 

[sharlin]

So german ships sink slowly saving lives whilst EVERY English ship has exploded thus far.

Predictable really, and sadly a tad dry to read.

 

[Devolved]

Even the light cruiser Chester blows up. Wow.

 

[sharlin]

Bets on the Grand Fleet going up like firecrackers?

 

[Devolved]

Bets on the Grand Fleet going up like firecrackers?

It has to otherwise the Germans don't stand a chance.

 

[Saphroneth]

Ships sinking with all hands don't actually happen very often. Especially big ships.
HMS Hood, for example, just plain exploded and sank in three minutes... and not everyone died, three surviving to be picked up two hours later by a destroyer.
The only two BBs sunk with all hands, by the way, were both PDNs lost in WW1 to torpedoe-caused magazine explosions - in one case with no friendly ships around. All the Jutland BCs which exploded OTL had survivors.
In fact... yes, in that one post more capital ships (BC,BB,CV) are listed lost with all hands than ever happened in history.

 

[ghappy1000]

Fleet Action begins

By 18 30 hours, the main fleet action began with Jellicoe crossing Scheer's 'T'. The officers of the German battleships were shocked at the sight of the entire Royal Navy heading towards them, but encouraged by explosions from British battle cruisers, decided to start fighting. By 19 00 hours, poor visibility had caused the British and German shells to miss intended targets. Under a pall of smoke and mist, Scheer's forces succeeded in disengaging by an expertly executed 180° turn in unison ("battle about turn to starboard"), which was a well-practiced emergency manoeuvre of the High Seas Fleet.
The victorious German battle cruisers, with the exception of the sinking Lutzow and severely damaged Derrflinger [which would sink after sustaining further shell hits from British battleships the following day] would rendezvous with the battle squadrons and deter a torpedo attack on the ships. While the battle cruisers would divert British attention from the 16 dreadnoughts of the High Seas Fleet, destroyers would launch a torpedo attack on the British Fleet.
The last confrontation with the British battle cruisers was at 20 30 hours when HMS Tiger detonated shortly before the battle between German and British dreadnoughts to German shellfire. The unlucky battle cruiser had just ran into the path of the German pre dreadnoughts. Although sinking a German pre dreadnought through penetrating the obsolete armour, the outnumbered battle cruiser was unable to manoeuvre after getting the steering crippled and was sunk by a salvo of torpedoes.
Although the British were concerned about the fleet's safety, Jellicoe was afraid the Germans might evade him. Although he considered retreat after finding about the Grand Fleet's deficiencies in night fighting tactics, the loss of Beatty's force save 2 battleships compelled him to make the decision to persist fighting to the end, where either fleet would score a decisive victory.

 

[Saphroneth]

So, let's sum up.


British BCs/BBs:

Lion (exploded) (BC)
Queen Mary (exploded) (BC)
Indefatigable (exploded) (BC)
Malaya (exploded) (BB)
Apparently an extra battle cruiser I missed, since the first post on page 2 starts with 4 lost Brit BCs - which ones were sunk by this point?
Warspite (wrecked) (BB)
New Zealand (exploded) (BC)
Princess Royal (exploded) (BC)
Invincible, Indomitable and Inflexible (exploded) (BC)
Tiger (exploded) (BC)

Result: 10 British BCs exploded, 1 Brit BB exploded, one Brit BB wrecked

German BC/BBs:
Lutzow (wrecked) (BC)
Derfflinger (progressive flooding, wrecked) (BC)

Result: 2 German BCs wrecked


So, overall, more British battlecruisers have exploded already than were actually at Jutland, along with two of the most modern and heavily armoured battleships in the world lost - one to an explosion.
In return, the German battle line has lost two wrecked BCs.

...

If you want to have this making more sense, at least have the fractional attrition rate about even on both sides - that is, have the Brits and the Germans run out of battlecruisers at the same time - and don't rely on having every British capital ship go up like they were built with large sticks of dynamite for gun barrels.

 

[Devolved]

So where's the mutual bit?

 

[ghappy1000]

So, let's sum up.


British BCs/BBs:

Lion (exploded) (BC)
Queen Mary (exploded) (BC)
Indefatigable (exploded) (BC)
Malaya (exploded) (BB)
Apparently an extra battle cruiser I missed, since the first post on page 2 starts with 4 lost Brit BCs - which ones were sunk by this point?
Warspite (wrecked) (BB)
New Zealand (exploded) (BC)
Princess Royal (exploded) (BC)
Invincible, Indomitable and Inflexible (exploded) (BC)
Tiger (exploded) (BC)

Result: 10 British BCs exploded, 1 Brit BB exploded, one Brit BB wrecked

German BC/BBs:
Lutzow (wrecked) (BC)
Derfflinger (progressive flooding, wrecked) (BC)

Result: 2 German BCs wrecked


So, overall, more British battlecruisers have exploded already than were actually at Jutland, along with two of the most modern and heavily armoured battleships in the world lost - one to an explosion.
In return, the German battle line has lost two wrecked BCs.

...

If you want to have this making more sense, at least have the fractional attrition rate about even on both sides - that is, have the Brits and the Germans run out of battlecruisers at the same time - and don't rely on having every British capital ship go up like they were built with large sticks of dynamite for gun barrels.

It seemed like HMS Malaya was close to blowing up from the impact of its 6 inch guns being penetrated and causing fires to the nearby magazines, wasn't it ?

 

[ghappy1000]

So where's the mutual bit?

Maybe in the battle. Perhaps the Germans would lose in the battleship fight.

 

[sharlin]

Wait a sec...Tiger's belt being penned by a pre-dread? And then exploding? Jesus what are the RN doing in this fantasy land? Lining their sides with barrels of primed nitro and dynamite?

The older shells on the german pre-dreads would have issues with a 9inch krupps belt the Tigers protection was first class and she was a very tough ship.

And if the germans are running away, are they going to 'mutually' scuttle their ships after taking off all their crews out of respect for the RN's fireworks display as the entire grand fleet no doubt explodes.

 

[Saphroneth]

Maybe in the battle. Perhaps the Germans would lose in the battleship fight.

You're the TL author!

And I don't approve of sneaky invisible edits. At least say what you're editing and why, at least when someone's already analyzed it.

 

[sharlin]

Maybe in the battle. Perhaps the Germans would lose in the battleship fight.

Well they are not going go

"ACH IN HIMMEL! Das Englander have suffered heavy losses! FIRE ON OUR OWN VESSELS!"
So yes you're going to have to sink the Germans in the fleet battle. Because this is about as 'mutual' as rape thus far.

And with the exploded BC's alone you've got well over 10k deaths in personnel alone.

 

[Saphroneth]

Wait a sec...Tiger's belt being penned by a pre-dread? And then exploding? Jesus what are the RN doing in this fantasy land? Lining their sides with barrels of primed nitro and dynamite?

The older shells on the german pre-dreads would have issues with a 9inch krupps belt the Tigers protection was first class and she was a very tough ship.

And if the germans are running away, are they going to 'mutually' scuttle their ships after taking off all their crews out of respect for the RN's fireworks display as the entire grand fleet no doubt explodes.

It just got invisibly edited to torpedoes instead and "sinking a pre dreadnought".

 

[sharlin]

Okay so the torpedoes made her explode...again I wonder HOW. Apart from the obvious fact that its being written by someone who has little knowledge of naval combat or how hard it is to sink a warship and is just going off "Oh British ships exploded at Jutland, that must be the norm."

 

[ghappy1000]

Okay so the torpedoes made her explode...again I wonder HOW. Apart from the obvious fact that its being written by someone who has little knowledge of naval combat or how hard it is to sink a warship and is just going off "Oh British ships exploded at Jutland, that must be the norm."

How do you want it to be then? I still don't think the British battleships blow up quickly, only the battlecruisers. Maybe I'll increase German losses just for that matter.