What if a major disaster has happened at Jutland? Planning timeline in advance. Whilst unlikely, I'm exploring the effects to counter the German victory at Jutland thread.
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Mutual destruction at Jutland
- Thread starter ghappy1000
- Start date
The loss of Admiral Beatty
At about 3p.m. on 31 May 1916,Hipper’s Battle cruisers had been detected by the 1st Light Cruiser Squadron although it was at 3:22 p.m. that Hipper sighted the British Battle cruisers but due to the direction of the prevailing winds Beatty did not identify Hipper for several minutes. Beatty continued to advance towards Hipper and eight minutes later the Lutzow opened fire on HMS Lion following a sharp turn to the south within a minute Lion and the rest of the Battlecruisers assembled opened fire.
The 5th Battle Squadron however, had not seen Beatty’s orders to turn south and was now well behind the faster moving Battlecruisers but their massive 15 inch Guns and greater range would soon come back into play. The German Battlecruisers had advantage of the weather gauge with their smoke being blown clear while the British had it blowing across their decks towards their targets and within a few minutes HMS’ Lion, Princess Royal and Tiger had all been hit with only crack shot HMS Queen Mary landing a reply on the Germans. [Taken from 'Room 40's Greatest Triumph]
All of a sudden, catastrophe struck the British. At approximately 4:00 p.m., a shell from Lutzow detonated on HMS Lion's Q Turret. In the scenario, every member in the turret made cordite arrangement errors and the fire caused by the shell left everybody dead or crippled. With nobody willing to assist the wounded men after an explosion and fire following, the fires spread and by 4:20 P.M., the Lion had detonated with the loss of Admiral Beatty and virtually every crew member on board, with some 15 barely escaping to become prisoners of the Germans.
At about 3p.m. on 31 May 1916,Hipper’s Battle cruisers had been detected by the 1st Light Cruiser Squadron although it was at 3:22 p.m. that Hipper sighted the British Battle cruisers but due to the direction of the prevailing winds Beatty did not identify Hipper for several minutes. Beatty continued to advance towards Hipper and eight minutes later the Lutzow opened fire on HMS Lion following a sharp turn to the south within a minute Lion and the rest of the Battlecruisers assembled opened fire.
The 5th Battle Squadron however, had not seen Beatty’s orders to turn south and was now well behind the faster moving Battlecruisers but their massive 15 inch Guns and greater range would soon come back into play. The German Battlecruisers had advantage of the weather gauge with their smoke being blown clear while the British had it blowing across their decks towards their targets and within a few minutes HMS’ Lion, Princess Royal and Tiger had all been hit with only crack shot HMS Queen Mary landing a reply on the Germans. [Taken from 'Room 40's Greatest Triumph]
All of a sudden, catastrophe struck the British. At approximately 4:00 p.m., a shell from Lutzow detonated on HMS Lion's Q Turret. In the scenario, every member in the turret made cordite arrangement errors and the fire caused by the shell left everybody dead or crippled. With nobody willing to assist the wounded men after an explosion and fire following, the fires spread and by 4:20 P.M., the Lion had detonated with the loss of Admiral Beatty and virtually every crew member on board, with some 15 barely escaping to become prisoners of the Germans.
LordKalvert
Banned
Such a scenario is unlikely to have any real effect on the fighting in the North Sea as the French would be able to move their battle fleet to cover Britain. However, the Russians would then have control over the Baltic at least as far as surface forces are concerned. Interesting, I'll have to think through what if anything that would do.
Not up on all the details at Jutland but if the Fleets split into squadrons for some reason (protecting wounded vessels or chasing targets), you could see a battle where the Germans destroy this squadron and the British that one, repeating the process until only a couple of ships, heavily damaged, limp home or are destroyed by torpedoes fired from destroyers (the fate of the survivors at the Battle of Tsushima).
Not up on all the details at Jutland but if the Fleets split into squadrons for some reason (protecting wounded vessels or chasing targets), you could see a battle where the Germans destroy this squadron and the British that one, repeating the process until only a couple of ships, heavily damaged, limp home or are destroyed by torpedoes fired from destroyers (the fate of the survivors at the Battle of Tsushima).
The pride of the British Empire at the bottom of the sea, even with the 'consolation' of obliterating the German fleet in being?
The consequences for the PM and his cabinet would not be insignificant - it is the political repercussions which are of the greatest importance.
As for the rest of the war? Who can know the butterflies from such an event...
The consequences for the PM and his cabinet would not be insignificant - it is the political repercussions which are of the greatest importance.
As for the rest of the war? Who can know the butterflies from such an event...
cpip
Gone Fishin'
He was indeed; turret A's officer on HMS Collingwood; came under fire from SMS Derfflinger during the Death Ride (which may or may not happen in this scenario).
Cryhavoc101
Donor
Well I think it unlikely that both fleets would be completely wiped out - short of several Tzar bombs being detonated in the area but lets roll with it.
Britain had the greatest ship building industry on the planet and could build multiple Modern Dreadnought's in about a year and commissioned in 2
A Number of capital ships (Including I believe Valient and 2 of the Revenges where built but still commissioning) were not at Jutland - and several other ships were on detached duty elsewhere - were as the German HSF was pretty much it.
So The Germans have the 2 Badens being built - which are the rough equivilent of a Revenge class
So while much smaller now the RN Fleet is still larger than the German one and the threat of an HSF breakout is much reduced.
Manpower losses for both Navies would be crippling though for future expansion!
Britain can immediately plug the gap with Dreadnought and the pre-dreadnoughts, plus the new construction coming online. Germany just lost its best pre-dreadnoughts so has only its older ones, and most of these are, at best, semi-crewed.
Britain can be in the North Sea in a few days time with the KE7s, Agamemnons, Formidables etc forming a stand-in fleet.
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
Britain can be in the North Sea in a few days time with the KE7s, Agamemnons, Formidables etc forming a stand-in fleet.
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
More than likely if that such event happened the Kaiser would sue for peace as the cost in blood would have been astronomical
Germany would have had Bayen and Baden plus the Hindenburg coming online by the end of 1916 by rushing their completion plus the 4 Braunschweig class ships (the rest of the pre dreadnoughts were training/depot ships by this point)
While instead the UK would have had Queen Elizabeth, Royal Sovereign, Resolution, Ramillies, Emperor of India, Renown, Repulse and Dreadnought herself in action by the end of 1916 plus the 7 ships of the Wobbly Eight with the 3rd Battle Squadron.
In short Germans are still outnumbered by 2-1 even if they re-activated the Wittelsbach class ships they were no match for the Wobbly Eight
Germany would have had Bayen and Baden plus the Hindenburg coming online by the end of 1916 by rushing their completion plus the 4 Braunschweig class ships (the rest of the pre dreadnoughts were training/depot ships by this point)
While instead the UK would have had Queen Elizabeth, Royal Sovereign, Resolution, Ramillies, Emperor of India, Renown, Repulse and Dreadnought herself in action by the end of 1916 plus the 7 ships of the Wobbly Eight with the 3rd Battle Squadron.
In short Germans are still outnumbered by 2-1 even if they re-activated the Wittelsbach class ships they were no match for the Wobbly Eight
cpip
Gone Fishin'
The Germans might be able to scrape a third dreadnought out by resuming work on the Greek dreadnought Salamis that was being worked on and seizing it as the British kept seizing dreadnoughts being built in their yards. A tiny issue in the grander scheme of things, but it might count for something depending on how bad the situation is for the RN.
HMS Malaya-A shocking explosion
[Contents in the intermission might be posted later.]
After the lost of HMS Lion due to magazine explosions, command of the squadron was hampered by the loss of Admiral Beatty and his staff. Command of Beatty's fleet passed temporarily to Hugh Evan Thomas in HMS Barham. As to make matters worse, HMS Queen Mary and HMS Indefatigable had also blown up with magazine detonations. Shortly after, HMS Southampton detected German battleships approaching the fleet. News of the German battleships and escorts were reported to the fleet, but it was hit by several shells from the German fleet and had to leave the battle temporarily [not necessary for story]. Simultaneously, the British and German destroyers fired torpedoes at attackers, but the torpedoes missed their targets except for one on the Seydlitz. Upon the loss of Beatty reaching him, Barry Bingham ordered the destroyers to sink more German destroyers, but lost a few to gunfire.
As soon as he himself sighted the vanguard of Scheer's distant battleship line 12 mi (10 nmi; 19 km) away, at 16:40, Beatty turned his battle cruiser force 180°, heading north to draw the Germans toward Jellicoe's fleet. Due to the failure to signal the 5th Battle Squadron, the battleships were passing towards the incoming High Seas Fleet. Having received information on the presence of the High Seas Fleet by HMS Southampton, Jellicoe alerted the Admiralty in London as to the imminent fleet combat.
The next catastrophe was to occur soon. At 17:27, HMS Malaya was hit on the starboard 6 inch guns. Other ships detected the raging fires but the ship blew up in a few minutes, leaving about 20 survivors. The blow up came as a shock to the other battle cruisers, shocked by how one of the most modern and well armed battleships afloat in the Royal Navy could be destroyed in quick succession to the 4 battle cruisers. Crewmen suspected that an explosion of the 6 inch magazines or guns or penetrations through the weakly armoured deck was responsible. [Close call otl, extra shells make the hit on 6 inch guns fatal in this scenario.]
In the meantime, what was to befall the Royal and Imperial German navies would look worse.
[Contents in the intermission might be posted later.]
After the lost of HMS Lion due to magazine explosions, command of the squadron was hampered by the loss of Admiral Beatty and his staff. Command of Beatty's fleet passed temporarily to Hugh Evan Thomas in HMS Barham. As to make matters worse, HMS Queen Mary and HMS Indefatigable had also blown up with magazine detonations. Shortly after, HMS Southampton detected German battleships approaching the fleet. News of the German battleships and escorts were reported to the fleet, but it was hit by several shells from the German fleet and had to leave the battle temporarily [not necessary for story]. Simultaneously, the British and German destroyers fired torpedoes at attackers, but the torpedoes missed their targets except for one on the Seydlitz. Upon the loss of Beatty reaching him, Barry Bingham ordered the destroyers to sink more German destroyers, but lost a few to gunfire.
As soon as he himself sighted the vanguard of Scheer's distant battleship line 12 mi (10 nmi; 19 km) away, at 16:40, Beatty turned his battle cruiser force 180°, heading north to draw the Germans toward Jellicoe's fleet. Due to the failure to signal the 5th Battle Squadron, the battleships were passing towards the incoming High Seas Fleet. Having received information on the presence of the High Seas Fleet by HMS Southampton, Jellicoe alerted the Admiralty in London as to the imminent fleet combat.
The next catastrophe was to occur soon. At 17:27, HMS Malaya was hit on the starboard 6 inch guns. Other ships detected the raging fires but the ship blew up in a few minutes, leaving about 20 survivors. The blow up came as a shock to the other battle cruisers, shocked by how one of the most modern and well armed battleships afloat in the Royal Navy could be destroyed in quick succession to the 4 battle cruisers. Crewmen suspected that an explosion of the 6 inch magazines or guns or penetrations through the weakly armoured deck was responsible. [Close call otl, extra shells make the hit on 6 inch guns fatal in this scenario.]
In the meantime, what was to befall the Royal and Imperial German navies would look worse.
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So far, so good...
Sometimes the war gods are in a bad mood--looks like this is one of those days.
As a minor aside, Germany will still have a dreadnought, SMS König Albert was in the yard and missed Jutland.
A mutual annihilation here could be a game changer in many ways. The Royal Navy is a symbo9l of the British empire, and the destruction of so much of it will get people wanting it rebuilt...NOW! It might be enough to pull resources from the BEF in Europe.
Also, the USA becomes the world's most powerful navy; this might even spur the USA to increase its building program.
Sometimes the war gods are in a bad mood--looks like this is one of those days.
As a minor aside, Germany will still have a dreadnought, SMS König Albert was in the yard and missed Jutland.
A mutual annihilation here could be a game changer in many ways. The Royal Navy is a symbo9l of the British empire, and the destruction of so much of it will get people wanting it rebuilt...NOW! It might be enough to pull resources from the BEF in Europe.
Also, the USA becomes the world's most powerful navy; this might even spur the USA to increase its building program.
Dont worry, i'm sure the Germans will suffer badly at some point.
Because if Barham has 'weak' deck armour then god help all the other ships that have worse deck armour..which is every other ship class in the North Sea at the time..
nah, who am i kidding..this is gonna be RN BB's going boom all-day long
Because if Barham has 'weak' deck armour then god help all the other ships that have worse deck armour..which is every other ship class in the North Sea at the time..
nah, who am i kidding..this is gonna be RN BB's going boom all-day long
Saphroneth
Banned
Dont worry, i'm sure the Germans will suffer badly at some point.
Because if Barham has 'weak' deck armour then god help all the other ships that have worse deck armour..which is every other ship class in the North Sea at the time..
nah, who am i kidding..this is gonna be RN BB's going boom all-day long
Heck, the deck armour of a QE class (2.5 to 5 in) compares well with:
Colorado (3.5 in)
Bismarck (3.9-4.7 in)
All the Standards (about 3 in)
It's mutual destruction, so maybe the HSF decides not to pull the 180-degree turn after seeing so many British ships blow up. Willingly charging a numerically superior fleet that's crossed your T is not going to end well.
Is the 2.5 to 5 before or after the post Jutland/30s rebuilds ?
(not that it matters at Jutland they are still the best ships present)
JSB
After blowing up the British the Germans then scuttle their ships in sympathy.