Mussolini TL's

I have noticed that their are many TL's that has a more successful Fascism. Many have POD's where Mussolini either stays neutral during World War II or sides with the Allies. I think this ignores the fact, that even without the alliance with Hitler. Fascism was an unmitigated disastor for Italy. Fascist economic policy was a disastor. The country was very hard hit by the Great depression and it took until 1955 for Italy to get back to its 1930 manufacturing levels, and many of Mussolini's economic campaigns failed. Under the Axe of Fascism by Gaetano Salvemini and Sawdust Caesar by George Seldes, both written while Mussolini was in power but before World War II, expose the myth of the Fascist Revolution. Why do many posters appear to be trying to rehabilitate Mussolini?
 
Well, compared to the evils at the time, Hitler, Stalin, Tojo, Mussolini is compared to them the least evil, and probably the easiest to rehabilitate.

I think Fascism worked for Mussolini until at least World War II, and especially with the founding of the RSI (Italian Social Republic), during which the Germans took over the Italian economy. Now, don't get me wrong in saying that Mussolini was a tyrant, but he did admittedly lessened the affect of the Great Depression in Italy and help to modernize Italy.

However, his other actions remain inexcusable.

If you'd like, check out my TL which is on hiatus while I rewrite it.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=201358
 
As Noravea said, Mussolini was the lesser of the numerous evils in WWII. Beyond that, the numerous legitimate PODs for a non-Axis Italy, the Austrian Crisis, or anything before Munich really, offers good alt-history potential.

To me personally, I love Mussolini TL's because Italy just did so awfully in WWII, that seeing any improvement is a delight. It's kind of like rooting for the Empire from Star Wars, in that no matter how evil they are, there's a certain charm to it anyway that makes you want them to win. Oh wait, I'm thinking of Nazis again. Fuck it, you all get the point.
 
In Up With the Star the fall of Italian Fascism leads the new Communist regime to use Mussolini's atrocities on the pattern of the OTL dictator to make him that TL's delayed equivalent to Hitler in sheer "Ew nasty" sweepstakes. Mussolini actually does.....tolerable....against the smaller Kingdom of Austria and the Republic of Hungary but this is where the atrocities the new Red Italy uses to bash him posthumously come in. Mussolini's Italy is the major belligerent in that TL not subjected to atomic bombings but that's because his armies are too pitiful to matter in winning the war as it is.

However the ATL also makes Mussolini a Magnificent Bastard of sorts who deposes D'Annunzio after the latter orders him executed but the execution is botched, primarily because D'Annunzio proves to be feckless against the much more unscrupulous and brutal Mussolini. He's certainly not a nice guy and he's only overshadowed because Fascist!Russia wages an atomic war, while the Tsarist regime in the ATL keeps their fascist precursors' atrocities quiet because the Tsarist regime itself would be culpable for them also and with the Restoration succeed in ensuring they're never really *known* conclusively to have happened. That style of fascism he builds is the basis of the ATL Russian one because the Imperial Russian state isn't capable of producing a Nazi-style movement.
 
Well, compared to the evils at the time, Hitler, Stalin, Tojo, Mussolini is compared to them the least evil, and probably the easiest to rehabilitate.

I think Fascism worked for Mussolini until at least World War II, and especially with the founding of the RSI (Italian Social Republic), during which the Germans took over the Italian economy. Now, don't get me wrong in saying that Mussolini was a tyrant, but he did admittedly lessened the affect of the Great Depression in Italy and help to modernize Italy.

However, his other actions remain inexcusable.

If you'd like, check out my TL which is on hiatus while I rewrite it.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=201358


Worked for Mussolini? Of course it worked for Mussolini, since it brought him to power, or did you mean worked for Italy? What's your source about Mussolini lessening the effect of the Great Depression on Italy?

According to this wikipedia article, the Italian economy didn't do very well under Fascism and the modernization efforts were innefective. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Italy_under_Fascism,_1922-1943#The_Great_Depression

Under Mussolini, the 8 hour day was eliminated, wages and living standards declined and child labor was reintroduced.

http://www.brucekelly.com/library/fascism.html

Mussolini; blackshirts also attacked labor unions and cooperatives both before and after Mussolini came to power.

Have you heard of the books I mentioned above? Here is another book about Mussolini that I read a while ago. http://www.amazon.com/Mussolini-Den...=sr_1_9?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1329210657&sr=1-9

In short, Mussolini avoiding an alliance with Hitler would not save his government from being an unmitigated disastor for Italy.
 
IIRC last year one member said he was working on a TL of Mussolini remaining a socialist and never becoming fascist, it hasn't appeared but I hope it does some day as it would have resulted in a very different WW2. As to the OP, I think it's clear that had Benny stayed neutral in WW2 then Italy would have experienced an economic collapse by the end of the 1940's, the economy wasn't working and serious reform was needed.
 

Cook

Banned
The country was very hard hit by the Great depression and it took until 1955 for Italy to get back to its 1930 manufacturing levels, and many of Mussolini's economic campaigns failed.
Which is less time than the United States took to recover and Roosevelt also had failures. It is called the Great Depression for a reason.
 
I have noticed that their are many TL's that has a more successful Fascism. Many have POD's where Mussolini either stays neutral during World War II or sides with the Allies. I think this ignores the fact, that even without the alliance with Hitler. Fascism was an unmitigated disastor for Italy. Fascist economic policy was a disastor. The country was very hard hit by the Great depression and it took until 1955 for Italy to get back to its 1930 manufacturing levels, and many of Mussolini's economic campaigns failed. Under the Axe of Fascism by Gaetano Salvemini and Sawdust Caesar by George Seldes, both written while Mussolini was in power but before World War II, expose the myth of the Fascist Revolution. Why do many posters appear to be trying to rehabilitate Mussolini?

Let's say that honestly if i must live in one of the great dictatorships of the 20th century, i probably choose Fascist Italy as the great lesser of evil...after all much of the political opposition end in exile or put on forced stay on some remote place (who by no way a vacation spot but still liveble) and lived to tell the story even the racial law were seen just as a big WTF for please the Germans than a genuine fascist politic and created a lot of controversy; before the war the economy and the general living condition of the people really become better (relative to the italian standard of living of the past not paragonated to other nation). Regarding the great depression, well it's not that the other nations of the word fared so much better, Benny go for trial and error...and frankly held it together not bad and waterd the bad times at the same time being in a state of war by 1936 to 1945 and experience an embargo. Sure long term the economic policy of the fascism will be wrong, but still no more than communism (who survived for long) and a lot due to corruption and cronysm.
 
Relevant to your interests:
But the relationship of Italy and England went sour with peak coal in England, in the early 1920s. After the first world war, Italy desperately needed coal to rebuild her industries. But Britain could no longer provide coal as liberally as before. Italy started importing coal from Germany, but that was not sufficient: coal consumption in Italy stayed flat between the two world wars. Italy's economy was also dragged down by war debt, and it never really recovered after the trauma of the first world war. All that had political consequences. The sympathy for England and for everything English evaporated in Italy and the Italian press started vituperating Britain and complaining about "the coal issue". D.H. Lawrence, in his "Sea and Sardinia" (1921) tells us that the coal problem was one of the main subjects of conversation among Italians. In 1922, Mussolini and the Fascist party took power, in large part also exploiting the resentment of the population for the bad economic situation.
It is said that Mussolini made the trains run on time. Perhaps it is true, but he could do nothing to create coal that wasn't there. The crisis of 1929 was a bad hit on the Italian economy and - perhaps as a reaction - the government tried to vent the nation's frustration by invading Ethiopia in 1935. There were several official justifications for the invasion - the most common one was that Italy needed "a place in the sun" - a curious justification from a country which has plenty of sun anyway. But, clearly, the invasion was meant to be a slap in the face for Britain. It was a way to tell to the British that the Italians could have their empire, too, that they could do that alone, and that they didn't need no damned British coal for that.
It was a mistake; a colossal mistake. Mussolini hadn't understood that it was coal that made empires, not the reverse. No coal, no empire; it was as simple as that. Conquering Ethiopia, Italy had dissipated immense human and material resources and had gained a bad reputation as the rogue country of the time. All that for a piece of a dry land and the dubious honor for the King of Italy of taking the title of "Emperor of Ethiopia." That land was also strategically impossible to defend, as it would be seen just a few years later.
Britain reacted to the invasion of Ethiopia by stopping the exports of coal to Italy. That, and other international economic sanctions, pushed the already crippled Italian economy on the brink of collapse. The government reacted furiously, pushing a series of measures called "autarchy," the use of national resources only. It was mainly propaganda and some ideas that never worked, such as trying to make shoes out of cardboard and clothes out of fiberglass. The attempt to develop new coal mines could not work as a substitute for imports. The Sulcis mine in Sardinia was the main national source of coal, but it could never produce much more than 10% of of Italy's consumption between the two wars. The lack of coal and the strain of the Ethiopian war weighted on Italy's economy with almost 25% of the state budget dedicated to supporting the costs of the military occupation of the overseas colonies.
Given the situation, events played out as if following a prophecy written down long before. Italy had to rely more and more on German coal and that had political consequences. You can read the story in these paragraphs written in 1940 by Ridolfo Mazzucconi, a popular Italian journalist and writer of the time. Mazzucconi, among other things, had popularized in Italy the concept of "perfidious Albion," that had originated in France at the time of the French revolution. ( from the ASPOItalia blog.)


England ordered, with a repentine action, the suspension of the shipping of German coal directed to Italy from Rotterdam. As a compensation, England offered to replace Germany in coal shipping. But this service was subordinate to conditions such that accepting them would be to be tied to the British political interests and grievously damage our war preparations. The Fascist government responded with suitable roughness; and German coal, which couldn't come any more by sea, found its most comfortable and short road via the Brennero pass.
Ths matter of coal was a healty and clarifying crisis of the political horizon. On March 9 and 10 (1940) Ribbentrop was in Rome and the visit gave rise to a clear and precise statement. The axis was intact. The alliance of Germany and Italy was continuing. A few days later, on the 18th, Mussolini and Hitler met for the first time at the Brennero pass and then even the blind were forced to see and the dim witted to understand.

You can read the same story as it was seen from the other side of the Atlantic in this article in Time magazine titled, "Hot Coal". It shows, among other things, how the Allies had completely misunderstood the Italian situation of the time. It is a tradition of fuel producers to use embargoes to try to gain political power over fuel importers but, usually, it doesn't work. In this case, Britain had tried to bully Italy into submission using the coal weapon. It was another colossal mistake that forced Italy to rely fully on German coal. It also fueled even more the resentment of Italians against Britain and that gave to Mussolini sufficient political leverage to push Italy into the war as an ally of Germany.
What followed was, perhaps, unavoidable, but it didn't have to be. It would have been enough to glance at the coal statistics for "the blind to see and the dim witted to understand" as Mazzucconi tells us. At that time, the size of a nation's economy could only be proportional to the amount of coal consumed and, by this measure, Italy couldn't even remotely match Britain. In 1940, despite having passed the peak, Britain still produced more than 200 million tons of coal per year and used most of it for its national economy and for that of the British Empire. Italy, instead, consumed just a little more than ten million tons of coal per year. The British economy was twenty times larger than the Italian one. The "blind and the dim witted" ones were all in the Italian government who grossly overestimated the military potential of the country. They were still thinking that a war was fought by peasants armed with bayonets. They had completely missed the dark side of coal.
So, I think it's safe to say that if the tremendiously stupid action that was the Abyssinian War is avoided, strategical options for Italy become a whole lot brighter. Yes, I completely agree that fascism was extremely detrimental to Europe, and Mussolini was a detestable human being, but I'd say a whole lot makes sense with a sober look at the incredibly tricky seat Italy was foisted into after the world war.
 
I just read Mussolini by Dennis Mack Smith and according to him Mussolini was planning to invade Ethiopia as early as 1925. The economy under Mussolini, even aside from the Great Depression did consistently worse then under his liberal predecessors.
 

Esopo

Banned
Let's say that honestly if i must live in one of the great dictatorships of the 20th century, i probably choose Fascist Italy as the great lesser of evil...after all much of the political opposition end in exile or put on forced stay on some remote place (who by no way a vacation spot but still liveble) and lived to tell the story even the racial law were seen just as a big WTF for please the Germans than a genuine fascist politic and created a lot of controversy; before the war the economy and the general living condition of the people really become better (relative to the italian standard of living of the past not paragonated to other nation). Regarding the great depression, well it's not that the other nations of the word fared so much better, Benny go for trial and error...and frankly held it together not bad and waterd the bad times at the same time being in a state of war by 1936 to 1945 and experience an embargo. Sure long term the economic policy of the fascism will be wrong, but still no more than communism (who survived for long) and a lot due to corruption and cronysm.

No more than communism? stalin managed to bring russia from a backward primitive state to the second industrial power of the world.
Under mussolini's rule italy's growth was not only less than the one of the economic boom, but also of giolitti's years.
 
No more than communism? stalin managed to bring russia from a backward primitive state to the second industrial power of the world.
Under mussolini's rule italy's growth was not only less than the one of the economic boom, but also of giolitti's years.

I see now, from also the topic on the persecutions in Rome.. Communist? Socialist?
 
No more than communism? stalin managed to bring russia from a backward primitive state to the second industrial power of the world.

Yes, but the price tag was a little too high for my taste if you want my opinion

Under mussolini's rule italy's growth was not only less than the one of the economic boom, but also of giolitti's years.

Still take in consideration that Italy was in state of war from the 36 (plus the retaking of Lybia and counterinsourgery in Somalia), there was the embargo and a little thing called the 'great depression', plus the war debt taking in consideration all that, what he done was adequate.
 
Actually in the early years Mussolini may not have been so bad. For example he is quoted as attacking Hitler's idea of race. He also advocated that fascism rose above the class warfare of the other ideologies and that race, but duty to the state was what mattered.

If he can remain consistent with this line, continue to fight the rise of Nazism in Austria and not enact any racial segregation laws Italy will be much better off. Under the proposed fourth shore program I believe it is projected Libya would be a majority Italian colony by 1960.
 

Esopo

Banned
Yes, but the price tag was a little too high for my taste if you want my opinion



Still take in consideration that Italy was in state of war from the 36 (plus the retaking of Lybia and counterinsourgery in Somalia), there was the embargo and a little thing called the 'great depression', plus the war debt taking in consideration all that, what he done was adequate.

Italy was hit less severely by the depression just because italian economy was backward.
Even in the 20's italian growth wasnt as satysfyng as the giolitti's one.
Fascist economic policy was no much more than prestige seeking actions (la lira pesante), ideological madness (la battaglia del grano), helping the rich (the compromise with the companies just meant that the fabric owners had absolute power on their employees), a vague address towards rearmament (not remotely as effective as the german one).
All the "modernization" features (thanks renzo de felice for this theory:rolleyes:) were introduced in the rest of europe in the same time.
 

Esopo

Banned
Actually in the early years Mussolini may not have been so bad. For example he is quoted as attacking Hitler's idea of race. He also advocated that fascism rose above the class warfare of the other ideologies and that race, but duty to the state was what mattered.

If he can remain consistent with this line, continue to fight the rise of Nazism in Austria and not enact any racial segregation laws Italy will be much better off. Under the proposed fourth shore program I believe it is projected Libya would be a majority Italian colony by 1960.

This is a myth. Mussolini was a racist since the beginning. He was anti semite (not as much as hitler but still...), he considered the slavs, the africans and the arabs inferior human beings, he was a rabid nationalist, and he ALWAYS helped the far right in germany.
His support to hitler (which before 1933 received money and other help from mussolini) just staggered when hitler immediatly tried to annex austria in 1934 (but mussolini himself was convinced that one day austria was going to be annexed to germany).

@ubbergeek: You mean what i am? liberal about civil rights, socialist about economy.
 
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