Mussolini flees to Spain

Mussolini tried to flee to Spain, via Switzerland, but was captured and shot by partisans before he could. What if he instead successfully fled to Spain? What do Franco and the Allies do?
 
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The Allies demand his extradition and, since Franco doesn't want an Allied invasion, Spain complies. Mussolini is subsequently tried at Nuremberg, but also provides important eyewitness testimony as to the involvement of others (such as General Badoglio and the King himself) in Italian Fascism. He'll also undoubtedly speak of what his Italian commanders saw the Germans do on the Eastern Front and his efforts to prevent the extradition of Italian Jews and Jews in Italian occupied territories, and the Allies will probably find people who can corroborate that. Maybe, just maybe, Mussolini will escape the hangman and get sentenced to life imprisonment instead. Ironically, he could wind up on one of the islands he used to send dissidents and political opponents to for internal exile.
 
Hungarian war criminal Horthy managed to survive in Spain. But true is he was leader of one of these not much important central European countries.
 
Franco would extrade Mussolini to Allies. He is smart enough to know that Mussolini in Spain would be big problem to his regime.
 
He’ll trade him to the Allies. He’ll ask for something in exchange. I don’t know what. He may ask that the death penalty be off the table.
If Mussolini does turn state’s evidence and if it can be corraborated then, maybe, he will be looked at like some people look at Speer; as the “good” bad guy.
 
Hungarian war criminal Horthy managed to survive in Spain. But true is he was leader of one of these not much important central European countries.


To the best of my knowledge he wasn't responsible for the holocaust in Hungary unlike Tiszo and Tuka were in Slovakia (holocaust in Hungary started in his overthrowal by Germany under the Szalaszi government).


Out of all the Axis leaders he wasn't the worst. Not good, but far better than Nedic, Pavelic, Antonescu and Tiszo. Salaszi was the really evil Hungarian.


If he purpotrated the holocaust, doen't matter what country he came from. His ass would be on a hook.


Japan was a different case for it was in Asia and the situation in Asia with China dramatically changed everything.


Kishi_Nobusuke_1954.JPG



Still surprising how Nobusuke got away with everything though.
 
To the best of my knowledge he wasn't responsible for the holocaust in Hungary unlike Tiszo and Tuka were in Slovakia (holocaust in Hungary started in his overthrowal by Germany under the Szalaszi government).
Well Hungary under his watch was 1st at least semi independent country to start deportations! In summer 1941, shortly after Operation Barbarossa started some 15-20 thousand Jews were deported to already occupied parts of Ukraine. There most of them were killed by German EG.

Tiso’s regime started deportations in March 1942. At the time to provide labor to Germans and for resettlement. How much they really know what Germans were doing I am not sure.

Anyway, as far as Tiso was leader at the time deportations started, he ended up “with his ass on the hook” as you called it not because of it. Major point of his trial was “treason on Czechoslovakia”, which is silly. Treason was perpetrated while Benes was president and accepted Munich and Slovak republic was declared by Slovak Parliament wHich came in majority from Czechoslovak elections. Another major part of his trial was “treason on Slovak National Uprising”.

Tiso and his regime definitely was responsible for ethnic cleansing by deportation, not sure how much blame he should get for deaths especially in fair trail. But definitely I am not blaming relatives of deported and killed for blaming him personally. Interestingly Tiso’s Minister of Interior Alexander Mach who was more responsible for pushing and actually orchestrating deportation end up with prison trrm and was released sometime in 60-ties.

Honestly Tiso and Horrhy in my opinion are on same level. Both of them should either hang or at least end up in prison for long time. And definitely they shouldn’t get funeral with honors as Horthy got in 90-ties.
 

Ramontxo

Donor
Ask Laval...

" 1945 Laval was assigned to the Stauffenberg castle in Wilflingen[47] 12 km outside the Sigmaringen enclave. By April 1945 US General George S. Patton's army approached Sigmaringen, so the Vichy ministers were forced to seek their own refuge. Laval received permission to enter Spain and was flown to Barcelona by a Luftwaffe plane. However, 90 days later, de Gaulle pressured Spain to expel Laval. The same Luftwaffe plane that flew him to Spain flew him to the American-occupied zone of Austria" (from wiki)
 
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Big Smoke

Banned
Horthy seems to be alright, far better than any alternative Hungary could have had - had he opposed the Nazis, Hungary would probably have met the same fate as Yugoslavia.
 
iso’s regime started deportations in March 1942. At the time to provide labor to Germans and for resettlement. How much they really know what Germans were doing I am not sure.


Trust me they knew; they definitely knew that the Jews of Slovakia weren't being given hot chocolate.

Tiso was a cleric fascist. He represented a strong vein of Catholic clerical antisemitism that's been present for millennium, poisoning the minds of millions (including Tiso's future boss the Fuhrer).

Tiso gave a speech btw in Holic telling Slovaks to 'cast off your parasites". I can only imagine what he meant.




Honestly Tiso and Horrhy in my opinion are on same level. Both of them should either hang or at least end up in prison for long time. And definitely they shouldn’t get funeral with honors as Horthy got in 90-ties.

Yeah eastern Europe certainly has major problems with fascist nationalistic revisionism.




Anyway, as far as Tiso was leader at the time deportations started, he ended up “with his ass on the hook” as you called it not because of it.

And Boleslaw Beirut was leader of Poland when communism took over Poland, not because of it.

Hitler was the leader at the time Kristallnacht took place, not because of it.

Jefferson Davis was leader of the Confederacy when it happened, not because of it.




Jesus Christ how clueless do you think he was? I'm not condemning the Slovak nation to purgatory but let's be honest with ourselves and admit that the first independent Slovak state of the 20th century was governed by anti-Semitic fascist nationalists who were chums with Adolf Hitler. Marian Kotleba has a following for a reason.



Well Hungary under his watch was 1st at least semi independent country to start deportations! In summer 1941, shortly after Operation Barbarossa started some 15-20 thousand Jews were deported to already occupied parts of Ukraine. There most of them were killed by German EG.


I believe Tiso's Slovakia was the first Nazi ally to agree to deportations (this was during February of 1942). Though Belgrade under Milan Nedic's Serbia was the first city to be declared Judenfrei.


One has to remember Tiso was put into power by Hitler while Horthy was in power before Hitler came to power. Anyone put into power by Hitler will be an anti-Semitic evil loon. The Hungarian Tiso and Tuka was Ferenc Szalasi, who is worshipped by the far right in Hungary (Jobbik).




 
Trust me they knew; they definitely knew that the Jews of Slovakia weren't being given hot chocolate.

Tiso was a cleric fascist. He represented a strong vein of Catholic clerical antisemitism that's been present for millennium, poisoning the minds of millions (including Tiso's future boss the Fuhrer).

Tiso gave a speech btw in Holic telling Slovaks to 'cast off your parasites". I can only imagine what he meant.






Yeah eastern Europe certainly has major problems with fascist nationalistic revisionism.






And Boleslaw Beirut was leader of Poland when communism took over Poland, not because of it.

Hitler was the leader at the time Kristallnacht took place, not because of it.

Jefferson Davis was leader of the Confederacy when it happened, not because of it.




Jesus Christ how clueless do you think he was? I'm not condemning the Slovak nation to purgatory but let's be honest with ourselves and admit that the first independent Slovak state of the 20th century was governed by anti-Semitic fascist nationalists who were chums with Adolf Hitler. Marian Kotleba has a following for a reason.






I believe Tiso's Slovakia was the first Nazi ally to agree to deportations (this was during February of 1942). Though Belgrade under Milan Nedic's Serbia was the first city to be declared Judenfrei.


One has to remember Tiso was put into power by Hitler while Horthy was in power before Hitler came to power. Anyone put into power by Hitler will be an anti-Semitic evil loon. The Hungarian Tiso and Tuka was Ferenc Szalasi, who is worshipped by the far right in Hungary (Jobbik).




Did I say he was clueless about deportations? I am saying that deportations were not main point of charges against him.
Instead they hanged him for treason.

Indeed Horthy was in power before Hitler got in power. And Hungary has since 20-ties antisemitic laws in effect.
How clueless do you think he was when Hungary started deportations in 1941?
Or you think deported were sent to picnic in western Ukraine?
It is interesting these deportations are not counted often for some reason.

Technically Tiso was in power before rest of Czechoslovakia was dismembered as he become PM of Autonomous Slovakia after Munich.
And we are not even talking about treatment of drafted Hungarians Jews by their own army at Eastern front.

As time went and reports from their own armies about Germans atrocities at East it is harder and harder to imagine they knew better.

Anyway. As I said both should hang. Tiso did. But charges should be more precise. Good riddance though. Horthy died in exile and got reburial with honors.
 
Mussolini considered fleeing to Spain but instead decided fleeing to Germany which ended up in him getting captured and hanged. What if he instead successfully fled to Spain? What do Franco and the Allies do?
Maybe He tries to flee further to South America Like Ante Pavelic . But He is too Well known and has no chance to escape unnoticed even dressed Up.
 
Though Belgrade under Milan Nedic's Serbia was the first city to be declared Judenfrei.

One has to remember Tiso was put into power by Hitler while Horthy was in power before Hitler came to power. Anyone put into power by Hitler will be an anti-Semitic evil loon. The Hungarian Tiso and Tuka was Ferenc Szalasi, who is worshipped by the far right in Hungary (Jobbik).

This part is factually wrong. The first places to be declared judenfrei were Luxemburg and the country of Estonia. Belgrade came later.
And the holocaust against Jews in occupied Serbia was carried out by the Wehrmacht (90%) and the SS (10%), not by any native collaborationist structures.

Tiso was also not exactly put into power by Hitler, he was de facto leader of autonomous (de facto pretty much independent) Slovakia before the creation of the Slovak Republic. This is one of the reasons why I personally equate Tiso with Horthy. They were leaders of far-right regimes but ultimately represented that regime's less radical wing.
 
This part is factually wrong. The first places to be declared judenfrei were Luxemburg and the country of Estonia. Belgrade came later.
And the holocaust against Jews in occupied Serbia was carried out by the Wehrmacht (90%) and the SS (10%), not by any native collaborationist structures.

Tiso was also not exactly put into power by Hitler, he was de facto leader of autonomous (de facto pretty much independent) Slovakia before the creation of the Slovak Republic. This is one of the reasons why I personally equate Tiso with Horthy. They were leaders of far-right regimes but ultimately represented that regime's less radical wing.



Belgrade was the first city in Europe to be declared judenfrei. That’s what I said. Not Serbia as a whole, just Belgrade. That’s what I’ve read at least.



His regime was more like Pavelic’s and Hirthy’s in the sense that it had a suffficient support base unlike Nedic’s or Szalazi but he was a fascist puppet who shared Hitler’s intense anti Semitism.


I’d put Tiso one step further over Horthy. Szalasi level.
 
An escape by the Big Moose to Spain will make Italian politics twice as ugly and messy for the balance of 1945, and longer.

The Bonomi and Parri governments may indeed get into a tussle with the Allied Powers over custody of Mussolini - they will likely want to put him on trial, too!

This will also affect the question of the monarchy. It will remind too many Italians that Victor Emmanuel helped put Mussolini in power in the first place. This may force his abdication even sooner in this timeline.
 
Belgrade was the first city in Europe to be declared judenfrei. That’s what I said. Not Serbia as a whole, just Belgrade. That’s what I’ve read at least.

I understand; the thing is, that's incorrect. Occupied Belgrade was declared judenfrei in May 1942 IIRC, long after the city of Bydgoszcz, occupied Poland (December 1939), the territory of Alsace (July 1940), and the countries of Estonia (December 1941) and Luxembourg (October 1941).

His regime was more like Pavelic’s and Hirthy’s in the sense that it had a suffficient support base unlike Nedic’s or Szalazi but he was a fascist puppet who shared Hitler’s intense anti Semitism.

I’d put Tiso one step further over Horthy. Szalasi level.

While the "official story" on the holocaust in Tiso's Slovakia has more holes than Swiss cheese, I still wouldn't equate him to a raving loon like Szalasi, or Pavelic (a genocidal psychopath who stood out even within the Axis context).
 
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