Mussolini as *Stalin, OR an Italian *USSR

hey, all. one thing that i've thought of recently as part of my ASB ATL for a country that i have not yet devised much AH content for (Italy) ultimately stems from the idea of the Pazzi Conspiracy partly succeeds, to the point that Leorenzo de Medici is also successfully killed during the conspiracy along with his brother but the Pazzi fail to bring Florence under their control. this causes the Bonfire of the Vanities to happen earlier than IOTL (in 1483 rather than 1497) and gives rise to a kind of early religious socialism called "faloism" (from the Italian for "bonfire") that has more to do with destroying excesses and extravagances ("occasions of sin") which persists for a long while after.

what i'm really getting to is that, eventually, there's an uprising most similar to the Bolshevik Revolution in which more radical faloists (e.g., socialists/communists) take over the country. however, the driving force behind this and its leader are faloists in name only: Mussolini takes power, still instating a fascist government (though it's still called faloism/socialism/communism in much the same way that nazism is technically called socialism when it actually opposes that, or in the same way that Stalin was really more of a capitalist than a communist, if you will) (and in case you're wondering, this is because Stalin lived in great comfort and excess during his reign and he was even called the Red Tsar by his detractors; this isn't even touching on his purges and other authoritarian policies)

anyway, i just wanted to get some input as to what everyone thinks about the plausibility of this. i know, i know, with a POD in the Renaissance, Mussolini shouldn't even exist, so if it makes things easier for you to understand, think of it as an expy of Mussolini instead of the historical Il Duce. the concept is the same: Renaissance "socialism" comes up and becomes the foundation of a "communist" Italian state most similar in its structure to OTL's Soviet Union, though without as much international sway because of its smaller size
 
hey, all. one thing that i've thought of recently as part of my ASB ATL for a country that i have not yet devised much AH content for (Italy) ultimately stems from the idea of the Pazzi Conspiracy partly succeeds, to the point that Leorenzo de Medici is also successfully killed during the conspiracy along with his brother but the Pazzi fail to bring Florence under their control. this causes the Bonfire of the Vanities to happen earlier than IOTL (in 1483 rather than 1497) and gives rise to a kind of early religious socialism called "faloism" (from the Italian for "bonfire") that has more to do with destroying excesses and extravagances ("occasions of sin") which persists for a long while after.

what i'm really getting to is that, eventually, there's an uprising most similar to the Bolshevik Revolution in which more radical faloists (e.g., socialists/communists) take over the country. however, the driving force behind this and its leader are faloists in name only: Mussolini takes power, still instating a fascist government (though it's still called faloism/socialism/communism in much the same way that nazism is technically called socialism when it actually opposes that, or in the same way that Stalin was really more of a capitalist than a communist, if you will) (and in case you're wondering, this is because Stalin lived in great comfort and excess during his reign and he was even called the Red Tsar by his detractors; this isn't even touching on his purges and other authoritarian policies)

anyway, i just wanted to get some input as to what everyone thinks about the plausibility of this. i know, i know, with a POD in the Renaissance, Mussolini shouldn't even exist, so if it makes things easier for you to understand, think of it as an expy of Mussolini instead of the historical Il Duce. the concept is the same: Renaissance "socialism" comes up and becomes the foundation of a "communist" Italian state most similar in its structure to OTL's Soviet Union, though without as much international sway because of its smaller size

OTL's Italy might not exist with a POD in 1483; it might still be fragmented into many parts, part of some larger empire, or both.
 
Well Mussolini was Communist, could you possibly have him create a rather strict Italian variant of Communism, I don't know how an Italian USSR would work unless we take regionalism to an absurd extent and create provincial socialist republics. As for POD of the bonfire of the vanities I think your going back way too far than you need to.
 
Well Mussolini was Communist,
No he wasn't. He was, for a time, a member of the Italian Socialist Party, but was expelled long before the factions that were to coalesce into the Communist Party of Italy formed, because he supported the Italo-Turkish War.

could you possibly have him create a rather strict Italian variant of Communism,
Or you could keep Bordiga, who IOTL adhered to a "rather strict Italian variant of Communism" in the leadership of the PCd'I.
 
Well Mussolini was Communist, could you possibly have him create a rather strict Italian variant of Communism, I don't know how an Italian USSR would work unless we take regionalism to an absurd extent and create provincial socialist republics. As for POD of the bonfire of the vanities I think your going back way too far than you need to.
it's really more to the point that Italy becomes a communist-in-name-only dictatorship and Mussolini (or whoever is in power) instigates lots of purges and historical revisionism

technically, the earliest POD in relation to this is that Lorenzo de Medici is killed several years before he passed away IOTL (for reference, he died in 1492) with the Bonfire of the Vanities itself not actually being a POD except for occurring earlier; it's the spirit behind the Bonfire that gives rise to the ideology that is faloism (spirit as in why they did it, not some supernatural entity ;))
Or you could keep Bordiga, who IOTL adhered to a "rather strict Italian variant of Communism" in the leadership of the PCd'I.
Mussolini has name recognition, but i'll have to remember to look into Bordiga, see where that could get me
 
hey, all. one thing that i've thought of recently as part of my ASB ATL for a country that i have not yet devised much AH content for (Italy) ultimately stems from the idea of the Pazzi Conspiracy partly succeeds, to the point that Leorenzo de Medici is also successfully killed during the conspiracy along with his brother but the Pazzi fail to bring Florence under their control. this causes the Bonfire of the Vanities to happen earlier than IOTL (in 1483 rather than 1497) and gives rise to a kind of early religious socialism called "faloism" (from the Italian for "bonfire") that has more to do with destroying excesses and extravagances ("occasions of sin") which persists for a long while after.

what i'm really getting to is that, eventually, there's an uprising most similar to the Bolshevik Revolution in which more radical faloists (e.g., socialists/communists) take over the country. however, the driving force behind this and its leader are faloists in name only: Mussolini takes power, still instating a fascist government (though it's still called faloism/socialism/communism in much the same way that nazism is technically called socialism when it actually opposes that, or in the same way that Stalin was really more of a capitalist than a communist, if you will) (and in case you're wondering, this is because Stalin lived in great comfort and excess during his reign and he was even called the Red Tsar by his detractors; this isn't even touching on his purges and other authoritarian policies)

anyway, i just wanted to get some input as to what everyone thinks about the plausibility of this. i know, i know, with a POD in the Renaissance, Mussolini shouldn't even exist, so if it makes things easier for you to understand, think of it as an expy of Mussolini instead of the historical Il Duce. the concept is the same: Renaissance "socialism" comes up and becomes the foundation of a "communist" Italian state most similar in its structure to OTL's Soviet Union, though without as much international sway because of its smaller size

What TL are you from? In this one Stalin nationalized almost everything that wasn't already nationalized. How does THAT make him a Capitalist? You can't get much more Socialist than Stalin's USSR. The state controlled virtually the entire economy.
 
What TL are you from? In this one Stalin nationalized almost everything that wasn't already nationalized. How does THAT make him a Capitalist? You can't get much more Socialist than Stalin's USSR. The state controlled virtually the entire economy.
see the spoiler'd text for my reasoning. i also don't want that one part of my post to completely derail the discussion, thankyouverymuch.
 
see the spoiler'd text for my reasoning. i also don't want that one part of my post to completely derail the discussion, thankyouverymuch.

That makes him TOTALITARIAN not Capitalist. Socialism/Capitalism are economic systems not political ones.
 
What TL are you from? In this one Stalin nationalized almost everything that wasn't already nationalized. How does THAT make him a Capitalist? You can't get much more Socialist than Stalin's USSR. The state controlled virtually the entire economy.

Oh god not this topic again! The semantic debate between what state capitalism and socialism is is just hideous.
 
exactly why i don't want it to become the topic here. maybe i should've just broken Godwin's Law instead :rolleyes:

Then why did you make it one by calling Stalin a capitalist? :rolleyes: You could have left that totally out and we wouldn't be discussing this. There was no reason to do that except to take a shot at capitalism.
 
No he wasn't. He was, for a time, a member of the Italian Socialist Party, but was expelled long before the factions that were to coalesce into the Communist Party of Italy formed, because he supported the Italo-Turkish War.

Nit-picking. Before the Soviet Union existed there was no clear distinction between the Socialist and Social Democrat Parties of the Second Internationale and what'd we'd now call Communism. For most of his time in the Italian Socialist Party, Mussolini exposed Orthodox Marxist views with a slight anarchist tinge. In fact, his views were so orthodox he was tasked with publicly "correcting" heretical factions within the Party and Trade Union movement (a bizarre activity common in Marxist parties), and it was in this manner he was introduced to the National Syndicalists who were Fascism's forerunners, by shoving Internationalist Marxism down their throats.

Mussolini, btw, viciously opposed the Italo-Turkish war with some infamously violent Internationalist rhetoric ("the tricolour is not worthy to be flown over a dung hill" or something along those lines). That's what made his "betrayal" over the First World War such a shock to his Socialist Party comrades, and explains the extreme bitterness they felt when the expelled him from the party.

In short, he may not have been a proto-Leninist or a member of a Party that wasn't yet founded, but for all intents and proposes he was a Communist by the standards of the time.
 
Then why did you make it one by calling Stalin a capitalist? :rolleyes: You could have left that totally out and we wouldn't be discussing this. There was no reason to do that except to take a shot at capitalism.
no, that was taking a shot at stalinism. now seriously, this isn't about stalin and his politics
 
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