I grant that there will be a Normandy! But it may not be in the same place as OTL Normandy...everything can happen as always. And yeah the language is Occitan with heavy Berber-Arabic influence, although this is only the court language, for now (with the exception of the pockets where arab-berber settlement was more dense) the linguistic situation is quite similar to OTL.
Muslim World: The True Faith Timeline
- Thread starter Talus I of Dixie
- Start date
So how much detail are you going to put into the construction of this language. Like for example how would one say. Hello I am from Paris and I am not a farmer.
Ah yeah you've others TL too, nice the message, show we might have an update soon..o hope. Wonder how the arrival those Ice Pirates might change things.Before anything, sorry for the late response! I was occupied writing my other TL (finished it literally right now). The Vikings will come soon enoughalthough at first you will see them messing up more frequently with the british and the germans, they may make a bid for Faransa sometimes (and later everything is up tbh).
In the ERE is just following the civil war as before, as i already promised quite a bit of times we'll get back to it after my little tour east (although the next chapter will be a maghrebi interlude, we'll finish the abbasids soon after and then China!).
The tease at the end..waiting for it
Decided to appear around here to avoid any worrying, the thing's that the chapter is taking longer than expected to write for two reasons: 1. It's been more in-depth than expected (what isn't necessarily a bad thing) and 2. Berber toponymy is a insane nightmare (although this problem is ending soon in the chapter itself).
Appreciate your patience! And later today i'll come back for replying questions that i left pendent, so if you've any questions, feel free to ask them...
Appreciate your patience! And later today i'll come back for replying questions that i left pendent, so if you've any questions, feel free to ask them...
I mean i'm currently still working on the language (being sidelined by the chapter itself but yeah i'm working on it) so whole sentences are a bit hard due to the need of structures, although once i get this worked on i will update y'all.
I left the site for months bc I was busy irl but I am now back to date again 😎. I like where this is going.
Now regarding the central asian update honestly the Tang expanding their influence in the region isnt far from our timeline, quite the contrary.
Now if I understand clearly you want to make the at this time iranic sogdian populations consolidate in the river valleys of southern central asia. This meant those regions wouldn't be turkified and would remain eastern iranic right? Just like most of iran and afghanistan. Altho even pretty consolidated and long time iranic regions like azerbaijan got turkified by the oghuz, so it depends of the volume of the migrations and how strong local imperial bureaucracy is, so the turkic rulers get assimilated by already present imperial bureaucracy and court culture.
Also keep in mind the conversion of souther central asian iranics was completed way later after the abbsids where gone from the region, the oens who achieved it where dynastys from khorasan.
Now regarding the central asian update honestly the Tang expanding their influence in the region isnt far from our timeline, quite the contrary.
Regarding the paper making knowledge spread if you want to make the spread of paper to the muslim world take more time is totally plausible, but I think it will be spread eventually, and it won't be that far in time, like maybe 2 to 3 centuries. Also keep in mind the time it will take to spread from MENA to western europe will be significantly shorter in ttl. In fact the traffic of ideas, technologies and general trade will be a lot more fluid and faster now that there won't be ideological barriers between Europe and MENA.
Now if I understand clearly you want to make the at this time iranic sogdian populations consolidate in the river valleys of southern central asia. This meant those regions wouldn't be turkified and would remain eastern iranic right? Just like most of iran and afghanistan. Altho even pretty consolidated and long time iranic regions like azerbaijan got turkified by the oghuz, so it depends of the volume of the migrations and how strong local imperial bureaucracy is, so the turkic rulers get assimilated by already present imperial bureaucracy and court culture.
Also keep in mind the conversion of souther central asian iranics was completed way later after the abbsids where gone from the region, the oens who achieved it where dynastys from khorasan.
Taking this into account Abu Muslim shia state in khorasan is gonna be pretty interesting if he manages to make it endure after himself. I think I need to read a bit more about this place and period. The turkic groups at the moment fluctuated like a liquid.
Regarding chinese influence It would be pretty interesting if we saw a weird mix of islam and confucian philosophy in central asia. Specially in eastern turkestan.
Regardless, even if the An Lushan rebellion is averted or softened (even in otl the tang recovered from it before the end of their dynasty) eventually the Tang dynasty will break into smaller states and chinese influence will retreat into "core china". I don't know if confucianism or buddhism is gonna remain prevalent in xinjiang once the uyghurs move into the region. The mongols will likely adopt tibetan buddhism like otl (altho rn the tibetans themselves have yet to completely adopt it, bön is still 1st among them, I think) but I think that in the long run turkic and iranic groups along the silk road will tend to slowly adopt islam. Mostly bc the chinese don't care what religion they follow while the states that are rn in control from spain to afghanistan do care if their traders and rulers follow islam. There is advantages is adopting it.
Regardless, even if the An Lushan rebellion is averted or softened (even in otl the tang recovered from it before the end of their dynasty) eventually the Tang dynasty will break into smaller states and chinese influence will retreat into "core china". I don't know if confucianism or buddhism is gonna remain prevalent in xinjiang once the uyghurs move into the region. The mongols will likely adopt tibetan buddhism like otl (altho rn the tibetans themselves have yet to completely adopt it, bön is still 1st among them, I think) but I think that in the long run turkic and iranic groups along the silk road will tend to slowly adopt islam. Mostly bc the chinese don't care what religion they follow while the states that are rn in control from spain to afghanistan do care if their traders and rulers follow islam. There is advantages is adopting it.
In the case of baltic and west slavic groups it would be interesting if those groups consolidated in ttl while the germans and east slavs remain more divided. It would change the geopolitical dynamics a lot in the long run. Of course. We will see. For now the northern european and eurasian plains and steppes have a lot of nomadic invasions to endure yet.
I just remember I never give you guys that list of shia sects I promised months ago. Eeeh, it was really confusing in this period. Specially going into groups that no longer exist.
The Age of Collapse: Chapter 15
Muslim World - The Age of Collapse
Young & Restless - al-Wilayat 'Ifriqiya (Interlude)
Young & Restless - al-Wilayat 'Ifriqiya (Interlude)
For the unaware visitor, the recent movement and good times on the growing town of Salḍai [1] would represent general stability and prosperity. But as Vittoriu grew used to living there, the truth was coming to light gradually, even though the port was heavy in traffic, according to some on the sicilian community in the town [2], there was news of rebellion from the mountain tribes to the south of the city.
And bless god such community existed, since he was pretty much dead on trying to speak arabic, and only could hold a very simple conversation in the local "barbary" language. But even with the struggles, it was certainly better than his chaotic hell-struggly home, Sicilia. And the mohammedans weren't so bad after all, even though he didn't like the arabs all that much, they think too much of themselves, overly prideful.
Going back home, with his long-time friend and only mate Piu, it came up the matter of living in the city, with Piu asking "You really don't like being around, eh?".
"Well it's not like i have many options, since i really can't speak with many people here." He replied, disappointment clear on his face, "I quite like Saldei, but it's hard to do much without knowing to say much."
"Y'know what?!" Exclaimed Piu "I'll present you to two friends of mine, they're both christians and you can talk a brokered latin [3], y'r alright with that?"
"I guess yes..." He shily said
"So tomorrow we'll get out of this Lidumari [4], and get to the nicest of this town." Piu maintained, "After that, i'll help you with the language problems."
With a mix feeling of untimeliness and gratitude, Vittoriu thanked Piu for his effort to comfort him, "Even though i don't know if it's really the better thing to do, might've as well did nothing tomorrow if it wasn't you, so thanks..."
Reorganization and Tribal Problems
(752-759)
Khālid ibn Ḥamīd al-Zanati was installed as governor during the ibrahimite uprisings directly after Uqba's death, being the main maghrebi subordinate of the western governor, and as such being granted the governorship by as-Saffāḥ. As one of the most respected chieftains of the powerful Zenata Confederation, he managed to do pretty well in the start, contributing to the supression of the ibrahimites in al-Andalus and finishing the job of making the ifriqiyan arabs a non-problem.(752-759)
The latter would be problematic, since the arabs of al-Qayrawan revolted as soon as he moved on to crush the ibrahimites in Iberia, but even though they managed to gather a decent territory after defeating local berber tribes, the lack of support from the arab landowners around Carthage (who sweared loyalty to the abbasids thinking it wouldn't be much of a problem for their power the berber rule, since with Uqba it wasn't) ended up deciding the uprising's failure, as they would be defeated by Zenati warriors while trying to capture Sufetula [5], and effectively crushed after Khālid returned from Andalus, soon the main rebels had all their proprieties confiscated and distributed to notable zenatis who first defeated the revolt and to the latin inhabitants of the city, the latter beggining a policy of benefitting the african latins that would be essential part of al-Zanati's governorship.
Quickly, al-Zanati moved Ifriqiya's centre to a place closer from his Zenati powerbase, settling in the mostly latinid town of Qusanṭīna/Šathantina [6], a bit north from the Zenati tribal dominions, and thus a secure place for his capital, with the obvious cost of angering the arabs that didn't revolt.
At first, he proved to be a stabilizer force, once a group of his tribe settled in and around the city while the local latins quickly prospered due to the political attention and thus rerouting of commerce associated with the change of the administrative center, even though al-Qayrawān remained very relevant due to the same commerce that went to Qusanṭīna.
One of the first things to do after moving was to build a port for the city, because it would be needed a way for things to move quickly by the sea. A temporary solution was to put the old roman town of Saldae (with time called Salḍai/Saghda [7]) to work as port, while Khālid poured funds in the construction of a port on the town of Rusiccade (Rusīqaṭ/Hucthkadi) [8], this ended up making Salḍai go on the rise as the main port-city in the region, with constant contact with southern Faransa and the Baleares, and after the influx of sicilians escaping from the Byzantine civil war, Italy as well.
The first four years were a boon for the region, with the province quickly filling enough budget to please the Abbasid Caliph as agricultural and urban productivity rose with the halt of tribal unrest and the benefits enjoyed by the latinid-arab urban class, coupled with intelligent fiscal policies that contributed to the growth of the cities.
But well, soon or later, problems would come, and they came with a revolt from the Kharidjite Sanhaja tribes located on the southern Atlas Mountains. They were already mostly independent, as once Uqba effortlessly crushed the umayyad establishment in the Maghreb, the Sanhaja didn't accede to the call for abbasid loyalty and Khālid didn't saw himself as stable enough to put them back into the fold head-on, but after some years of infighting and organization, led by Imām Brahim ibn Ahar, they decide to attack de facto abbasid territory, invading the lands of the Miknasa tribe (a Zenata tribe, also in the Atlas) and quickly defeating them, forcing the Miknasi soldiers to flee for their eastern territories (while some sheltered at Walīlī [9]), with the Sanhaja taking time to consolidate their new territories, especially when some neutral Masmuda tribes were preemptively attacking them due to skirmishes around Ḥiṣn Day [10].
While the town of Walīlī prepared itself for a possible siege after the arrival of the Miknasi fleeing troops, message would soon come to the districtal government in Sabtah and then be shipped (and travel) to Qusantīna, where al-Zanati would soon assemble troops to crush the Sanhaja, even though worse would yet come to be. In March of 758, an army of 23,500 provincial soldiers would be ready at the outskirts of Qusantīna for the march towards the west, which would be made at the end of the same month.
After passing through the territories of the Zenati Maghrawa and Banu Ifran (with them adding the number to around 45,000 soldiers) and resting at Pomaria [11], Khālid divided his army in two. One group under the trusted Maysar al-Matghari and another under him, the first would go towards the Rif as a show of protection to the locals in order to avoid any desertions, and by September, set fortified camp in a plateau near a river [12] while expecting further movement.
At the same time, Wāli Khālid went through the eastern arid plains, stopping by Azmurnayan [13] and then marching on towards the fighting between the Masmuda and the Sanhaja. But by then, the Masmuda were already completely damned in the war, having lost heavily in battle and only remaining the resistance of the urban inhabitants of Sala [14] who managed to maintain strong due to the Sanhaja's lack of ability to siege-ing (and with that the Sanhaja only left a contigent overseeing the city while the rest of the army focused back east).
So Khālid was pretty surprised when nearly the whole Sanhaja army approached his force south of the land of the Izayen [Khenifra], and in this moment of unpreparedness, crushed him in the Battle of Maâmmar [15], blowing off the campaign entirely, forcing him to fled with the remains of his army (bit less than 10,000 soldiers) to Walīlī, where he selected a few hundred soldiers to garrison with him and sent the rest in march back to the Rif, with emergency help orders to al-Matghari.
Then he was sieged as many tribes in the Atlas Mountains deserted him, moving to the Sanhaja's side to avoid punishment (that the Iznayen did suffer for helping in Khālid's escape to Walīlī) from the Kharijites. For al-Zanati's luck, the city's fortifications were quite new so Brahim ibn Ahar had quite a problem to even start the siege, in another matter, the city was quite populated so supplies could go low faster than expected, especially as the first part of the siege would take place in Winter (also the reason that al-Matghari wouldn't be able to help immediately).
Back in the east, news of the conflict agitated through the winter, and as the Wāli's defeat spread (in a very exaggerated way), it played against his and (obviously) abbasid interests. In February, the arab landowners (who already were quite noped by Khālid's pro-latin policies) with expected support from the Ukhawia of Wasatbahr, revolted and seized the entire region around Carthage, including the city itself, and then made a move on al-Qayrawan. Soon after they would elect one of their own as Emir of Ifriqiya, with the seat in Carthage, and at first received limited support from the wasatbahrians.
In Qusantīna, Khālid's deputy was in charge, an abbasid envoy with christian mesopotamian origins, Thāday ibn Shaqur, maintained close relations with the Zenata tribesmen as deputy, even marrying with a daughter of the Jarawa, tribe recognized by leading the fight against the umayyad invasion, and with the uprising by the arab landowners, he first kept eye close on the kharijite tribes in Kabylia while requesting reinforcements from the Caliph, the main of them being the Kutama [16], and after no notice of any revolt coming around, mobilized an little army (a benefit that he could have since the landowners had an equally little army) to fight against the landowners, putting the tribal chief [Zenata commander] in command of it.
By then, the arabs were already trying to get over the fortifications, having this time captured Sufetula and Sufes, now siegeing down Thaia [17]. As the abbasid army neared, the arabs retreated from the siege and reorganized around Sufes, confident, [Zenata commander] offered battle as soon as the arabs seemed ready to it, and proceeded to quickly crush them at the Battle of the Nobles [18 - June 759].
The arabs then lost Sufes and Sufetula both by uprisings of the urban populations during the brief sieges and hastily retreated all the way back to al-Qayrawan, where they would remained sieged down throughout the Winter, while the abbasids recovered control of the northern plains, abolishing the land-grants and establishing it as direct property of the farmers. Ad Mercurium and Carthage were receiving the wasatbahrian's promised help, but they ended up withdrawing after the Caliphal reinforcements (coming fron Egypt) closed on them. The withdrawal also affected the arabs in al-Qayrawan, as they were being supplied through the old port of Hadrumetum [19], who was being garrisoned by the wasatbahrians while arab troops guarded the convoys (who made it through the road that connected the two cities), with them out, it was easy for the abbasids to block the road and subsequently supress Hadrumetum, resulting in al-Qayrawan falling in the beggining of the Spring.
Back to the Sanhaja problem, Walīlī remained resistant to the siege by Springtime, but supply problems were already coming to light, and some assaults from the Sanhaja already had put quite a pressure on the besieged. In the Rif, al-Matghari concentrated his forces in camp after acknowledging the developments back in the east. While other Sanhaja forces captured Ṭinja [20] and were besiegeing Sābtah.
With that, al-Matghari first went to remove the northern threat, enjoying support from the romanized populations on the plains near the ruins of Tamuda [21], and moved against the army on Sābtah, which retreated along the coast back to Ṭinja fearing retaliation from the riffian tribes in case they went through the mountains, without need to concern, al-Matghari cutted his way through the mountains and with an additional forced march anticipated the Sanhaja near the village of Mahumidul [22], east of Ṭinja itself, and with a charge from the interior by his riffian cavalry, crushed the enemy army and captured Ṭinja afterwards.
With the Rif secured, Maysar hurried up to break the siege, by then having passed a month and a half, moving south with his army towards Walīlī. The city was still standing against the Sanhaja, but if al-Matghari failed, would make its fall certain, as supplies were reaching a critical low point and garrison morale was held up only by the hope of him relieving the city.
Sanhaja scouts made their army aware of al-Matghari's arrival, and soon, they were preparing for battle in the valleys a bit north from the city. As soon as Maysar's army arrived on scene, it confronted this by sending the riffian cavalry to attack regularly the most-mountainous points of the enemy's positions, it ended up being like a raid, what comforted Brahim ibn Ahar, thinking that the enemy was too tired from the continuous marches for a quick solution of the conflict.
Then he took a key decision, separate a part of his infantry to make a final assault on Walīlī, intending to capture the city before a battle could even begin (and with that possibly discourage al-Matghari from even entering battle in the first place). The attack wasn't necessarily unexpected by the defenders in the city, but it certainly had a moral effect on the garrison, as it made seem that the so awaited help wouldn't come at all.
But after three days, Maysar did come into battle, seemingly continuing his "raids", one of them was followed up by a main infantry charge from the abbasid provincial troops, what gave an early disadvantage to the Sanhaja, with the battle starting pretty messy. The riffians then charged into the mountains again, this time really forcing through, opening a gap that Maysar made sure that the provincial cavalry would exploit, deciding the battle in favor of the abbasids, as Brahim fled from the camp.
Back in Walīlī, the battle resulted in a part of the assaulting troops being sieged on the arab quarter (that they had captured first), and surrendering as soon as it was certain that the Sanhaja army had been fully defeated. As both Maysar and Khālid met, the former was put responsible for the final pacification of the region, putting it back under Qusantīna's control, could take a bit, since his troops clearly needed to rest, but with the support of some local tribes it would be done quite smoothly (unexpectedly so with the Masmuda, who to be honest were way too weak to do anything other than just play the game), even though Brahim ibn Ahar and some other rebel nobles weren't found.
Soon, Khālid was back to Qusantīna with the Wāli's personal guard marching through the streets, where he was greeted joyfully by the people of the city and by his subordinate, Thāday ibn Shaqur. And after a quite frightful experience, he still had to run the province, and already got some ideas.
Reforms, Prosperity, Uprising and Stability
(760-771)
After accommodating back to his work, Khālid sent to the Abbasid Caliph a letter describing fully what happened in the last years throughout the province together with the yearly revenue, what explained further the requests for additional troops and put the Caliph's concern with the security of the western provinces to rest. It also secured permission for the reforms the Wāli wanted to implement to avoid further problems.(760-771)
After one year putting things in a calm control, reforms started, with the establishment of a districtal system dividing the province into three minor ones (al-Maghrib al-Aqṣá, al-Maghrib al-Tilimsiyy and al-Maghrib al-Ifriqiyy [23]) and those into minor districts, that would be 26 in total, without counting in the independent one around Qusantīna. This was for a better administration over local groups, and try to get a greater loyalty from them by access to the bureaucracy and closer contact from the government.
At the same time, Khālid, on Thāday's advise, welcomed sicilian and southern italian (they were all treated as sicilian though) refugees into the coastal cities after the collapse of the kosmian forces in consequence from the failed Siege of Constantinople. They ended up turning most urban due to being newcomers, with their main centres being the ports of Salḍai, Qarṭajīn [24], Rusīqaṭ and refounded Hadrumetum as Mantīlyu al-Siqīliyy [25], their only rural communities were in the eastern Rif [Around OTL Al Hoceima] and in the semi-abandoned urban communities previously located around Carthage (Ad Decimum, Tunes, Maxula), in the majority of places they integrated with the local latinid population, but remained a set apart in the Rif (due to the lack of any sizable latinid population), in both Carthage and Mantīlyu (due to a population big enough to be a community on its own).
Soon, he set up that each district would need a separate garrison, supplied by the locals. This wouldn't mean much in other places, but in the Maghreb this meant that each berber tribe would have to supply the abbasid state with soldiers. After the crushing of the Sanhaja (and, ironically enough, their own revolt, since reprisals by them ended up being a pretty good source of propaganda for Khālid) the majority of the tribes were good to just do it anyway, it wasn't seen as worth it to revolt, at least if it just will stop at that.
And for some time, it was received well enough, the districtal reforms ended up improving local management and with the drive to eliminate pre-arab-rule-origined big landowners from the entirety of the province, agriculture started its process into booming, including even a campaign of financing for land-developing in unused areas (especially affecting Southern Ifriqiya and the African High Plains), while urban production rose with increasing rural demand and trade with Wasatbahr, Faransa and al-Andalus (since trade beyond that was significantly diminished by the Byzantine Civil War).
But there's always the exception, and the Kabylian Kharijites were adamant about their independence from the abbasid government, first only disobeying the troop orders, and after they were threatened action in 766, they revolted under the leadership of the Kutama, soon cutting the connection between Qusantīna and Salḍai, while attacking the rural communities outside the walls of nearby urban communities.
Khālid already expected that, and had put an army on the ready before making the threat in the first place, and swiftly acted soon after the revolt took its heads. And although effectively crushing it quickly would be impossible (because well, those mountains are an actually pretty great geographical defence), immediate action minimized damage, as there wasn't time for any threat towards the coastal urban communities besides an occasional raid in its surroundings.
In about a year, the roads between Qusantīna and Salḍai/Rusīqaṭ were fully safe against the raids, with that, riffian levies were called up from the furthest west and made the main part of an attack directly at the mountains. After some failed offensives caused by lack of coordination, the Kutama were a non-threat by 768's Autumn, the confederation dematerialized while Khālid agreed to grant them freedom to be kharijites if it was so their will (even though quite a lot of them just reconverted into Sunni), some of the most important members of the tribes just migrated out of the Maghrib, the majority of them to Sardinia, where they would make quite a mess. The riffians were used as garrison for the region after a brief re-training, being seen as pretty useful.
In the aftermath of this revolt, things went back to stabilizing, and pretty much towards overall prosperity, with a second flow of escapees coming from Rhomanian Italia and some deals with Wasatbahr making trade potentially much more easier and profitable. Once Caliph al-Mansur demanded the province's participation in the incoming war against the infighters, things wouldn't change much internally, but the consequences thereafter would be quite great.
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Usually i simply couldn't do a world map because my phone (where i draw maps) doesn't support anything bigger than around 1,000x1,000 (and even this with difficulties). But now i've got a PC i may start to play with it, who knows.
Excuse me how in the world do you draw such detailed maps on your phone?
I guess anything can be done if you're used to it, i draw maps since late 2018 so i just do it anyway. The way i'm limited by it really does be frustrating though.
You must use a stylus right? I cannot fathom doing what you do with whats basically finger painting.