way too costly.
As information, the update will be coming tomorrow or wednesday, i'm already working on it.
Muslim World: The True Faith Timeline
- Thread starter Talus I of Dixie
- Start date
As information, the update will be coming tomorrow or wednesday, i'm already working on it.
Actually not, it's just that the update is being kinda messy, and i actually replanned it today, so it's taking some time, but you might not wait for too long for it, at least if everything goes as my plans require. Though all this mess up made me plan like the next three chapters so the production from now on will be a lot smoothier.
Don't worry. The more thought put on it the better. Also don't be shy of retcons if things get messy in the long run.
Also @Talus I of Dixie I found this: https://www.jstor.org/stable/4200318?seq=1 "The Development of Settlement in the North Jazira between the 7th and 1st Millennia BC". Hope it helps.
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I shall arrive with news more important than the spread of coronavirus, i shall arrive with the news that TODAY
Not TOMORROW, not SUNDAY
Like TODAY
We'll have the new chapter of this so loved (and yet not so hated) series
, cheers!
Not TOMORROW, not SUNDAY
Like TODAY
We'll have the new chapter of this so loved (and yet not so hated) series
, cheers!
The Age of Collapse: Chapter 10
Muslim World - The Age of Collapse
To Never Be The Same Again: The Wendish Mid-8th Century
Going Free and Westwards (741-759)
With the fall of the Franks, in the midst of the turmoil generated in Germania, the Sorbs were freed from vassalage to their overlords, and with that freedom, they began to raid the Thuringii lands extensively, gradually causing them to migrate westward, and with that, at the same time, the sorbs seeking to raid simply settled in the places left partially underpopulated by the thuringians.To Never Be The Same Again: The Wendish Mid-8th Century
Going Free and Westwards (741-759)
By 757, the migration would already be mostly complete, during that time, the sorbs were established in what once was Thuringia, integrating what was left of the germans in their domain, with quickly the main economic activity becoming the salt mining of the deposits along the Solawa River [1], the sorbs in the region soon organized themselves into a new sub-tribe, with the establishment of the Soltě [2] around the center of Iehesfōr [3] at the end of this same period.
Further north, the Obotrite Confederation was consolidated under the command of Knyaz [4] Racibor, who after assuming influence over saxon politics managed to use his prestige to establish himself as the almost absolute sovereign of the confederation, obviously, this sudden expansion of power it was not undisputed, resulting in 756 occurring the outbreak of a revolt by the Warnabi and Drevani.
The revolt was followed by a Veleti intervention on behalf of the rebels, and after gathering 9.500 soldiers, Racibor defeated the rebels and a small Veleti auxiliary force at the Battle of Zyedenoś [5], soon after the battle, the Drevani would surrender. The Veleti then decided to make a deal with the Warnabi by adding them to the confederation, which only further infuriated Racibor, who in 758 responded with another victory at the Battle of Bošzowe [6], whose after allegedly ordered a cruel plunder of the entire region, forcing the Warnabi to submit completely with their fields being burned and their population punished accordingly.
After that, Knyaz Dragovit of the Veleti, seeing that continuing would only cause more devastation, decided to make peace, recognizing the obotrite position and paying a reasonable tribute, while what was left of the Drevani elite was exiled from their lands, this war would allow Racibor to establish a rare control (at least for slavic polities) over the state, which would bring new possibilities, especially with what was yet to come.
The Opening of the Baltic and Booming Trade (759-767)
With the end of the war, Racibor spent his first years of power establishing firm control of his territories, appointing loyal and capable subjects (many of them soldiers who fought against the rebels and veletians) for administrative tasks left vacant by the rebels, thus managing to form a new upper class who would serve the Knyaz loyally, wagrian nobles also received extensive privileges in matters of administrative positions, thanks to their great participation on the fight against the revolt.In 761, the ukhawias arrived in the Baltic Sea, with the muslims from Juzuralqna sending a large entourage to Viłtěgrod [7] with impressive gifts [8] in order to negotiate the opening of the first muslim trading posts in obotrite territory. After the pleasant surprise, Racibor allowed the opening of two posts for the muslims, who settled in Sakodlec [9] and Liubice [10], connecting the Obotrites with mainstream trade routes for the first time. Taking advantage of the recent conflicts, Minathulaty reached an even better agreement with the Veleti, establishing trading posts in Strzałow [11], Chauzyék [12] and Madziryka [13] in exchange for supporting the veletians against the obotrites in future conflicts.
The effects were varied, with mediterranean and muslim products such as pottery (particularly the early stages of franco-muslim and hispano-muslim pottery), sugar, cotton-based clothing and other diverse products quickly came to prominence in the region as luxury goods, and made the polabian people have an advantage by being at the start of the trade routes that would subsequently open.
Another affected group were scandinavians who lived in coastal posts in the region [14], initially muslims and scandinavians were in conflict over trade competition, but in a short time the two groups would get along for material reasons, with muslim products being marketed for iron and fur, this relationship took place mainly in the minathulatian trading posts, where as early as 766 there were already scandinavians sailing by contract with muslims.
About matters of religion, ukhawia traders were generally quite liberal, paying more attention to their profits than to the faith of their customers. But that doesn't mean that the contact had no effect, with communities of muslims gradually growing around the trading posts, particularly among scandinavians in the area, with given time, muslims also would begin to write extensively about the curious mythology of the pagans they lived close to [15].
Further south, the sorbs were affected differently by the events, initially having to battle thuringians trying to raid the Soltě, but under the leadership of Knyaz Czimislav, the sorbs decisively defeated their enemies in 760, causing a shift in the balance of power in the region, resulting directly in the combination of franconians and thuringians crossing the Rhine on the following year.
After that, the Soltě lived in relative prosperity, trading their precious salt with their neighbors, in exchange for muslim products from Saxony and Obotritia, with merchants descending the Elve/Labe [16] by Misachsun and Zwierzyn [17] with such products, and from there the Soltě resold the products to their sorbs brothers in exchange for the valuable ores located in their territory [18], and subsequently creating even more trade routes, connecting the Silesian and Bohemian mines to the distant lands of Avaria and Khazaria, allowing a continental rapprochement in terms of trade that would take place in the coming years, and this would gradually make the Soltě the hegemonic power among the sorbs.
The Little War (767-770)
In 767, the Veleti Confederation, still under the rule of Knyaz Dragovit (that by now is under heavy minathulatian influence) would go to war again against the Obotrites, invading with 7.000 soldiers and 4.000 Nordic mercenaries, quickly capturing the obotrite settlements along the Labe Basin, until they were forced to lay siege by the newly created fortifications of Zwierzyn. Racibor, already a 47-year-old man, quickly gathered 11.200 warriors in Viłtěgrod and in September bypassed Lake Glåvitĕ [19], confronting the Veleti on the 22nd, at the Battle of Aišerzyn [20], and subsequently defeating them, with the help of the desertion of the nordic mercenaries and the retreat of enemies in the region during the winter.In 768, Racibor went on the offensive, but Dragovit did not yield to battle, using hit and run tactics while retreating from the main settlements (only to recover them after a maneuver), Racibor then decided after several indecisive engagements to march straight into the main centers of the confederation, forcing the Veleti into battle, Goderac [21] was captured in September without the Veleti appearing for battle and Tetirov [22] was the scene of a minor battle, where only a small group of 1.400 Veleti warriors fought alongside 330 Muslims to successfully defend the settlement. During the winter, 7.400 Veleti warriors recaptured Goderac, bringing the obotrite gains to zero.
And next year, a daring Dragovit would surprisingly counterattack, engaging on May 25 in the Battle of Losica [23], where they managed to force the retreat of the country's core obotrites. A new offensive, however, would be blocked by the relatively strong positions established by the Obotrites at the border, Racibor meanwhile decided to wait for the Veleti before further action, but they would be delayed by pure internal strife since many of the other confederate tribes saw the Circipani and Dragovit as traitors and not-trustable for leaving much of their land to be occupied, and this soon blocked new proposals for the war's operation.
The war would end in 770, when Racibor marched again into Veleti territory with 14.000 warriors, the still-disunited Veleti tried to stop the obotrite army separately to no avail, with the main border tribes simply surrendering to the Obotrites after the last effective resistance (6.000 Veletians against 9.000 obotrites) was defeated at the Battle of Strěłci [24], forcing the rest of the tribes centered around the Circipani to make peace with the Obotrites, where the surrender of the veletian tribal territories and a simple tribute to be paid for the next 20 years was accepted.
With this defeat, the Veleti (now mostly centralized under the Circipani and Knyaz Dragovit) would become even more dependent on Minathulaty's muslim merchants, who would receive extensive privileges in the next decade as the nation tried to recover from the scars left by the war that almost resulted in total annihilation of the Veleti.
However, for the Obotrites, the Little War resulted in even more territorial gains and the consolidation of Racibor's dominion over his nation and his influence in the nations around him, allowing him to die in peace in 772, being able to trust that his legacy wasn't and will not be in vain. In addition, the war would have an influence on trade routes, giving economic preference to the saxon route by Misachsun and to the pomeranian route by Šëčīt [25], having effects on the balance of power of the slavic tribes that will be covered in the next episodes.
[1]: (Thuringian) Saale River
[2]: Now the westernmost slavic sub-tribe (being a sub-tribe of the Sorbs), the name comes from Common Slavic solъ, meaning "salt", in a obvious reference to the salt mines around the Saale River
[3]: Erfurt, Germany. Pronounced [i̯ɛɦɛsfu̯ɔʀ]
[4]: Slavic title, meaning basically prince, though its etymology is connected to King and König
[5]: Wittenberge, Germany. Pronounced [zyɛdɛnɔsʲ]
[6]: Oranienburg, Germany. The etymology is basically the same from the earlier name of the OTL city (Bützow), pronounced [byʃ'zɔuj]
[7]: Mecklenburg Castle and Surroundings, Germany. Etymology is literally "Big Castle", pronounced [viwtə'grod]
[8]: The basic muslim products starter pack, that immediately the slavs enter in love with
[9]: Kiel, Germany. Pronounced [sakɔdlet͡s]
[10]: Lübeck, Germany. Pronounced [lʲubit͡sɛ]
[11]: Stralsund, Germany. Pronounced [stʲrʲzawɔv]
[12]: Ralswiek, Germany. Pronounced [xau'z(u)ye:k]
[13]: Greifswald, Germany. Pronounced [mad͡zʲ'rykɒ]
[14]: You may recognize these posts as emporia, which started appearing at the middle of the 8th century, you may note that many of the muslim posts are being established at or near emporias, basically forcing the scandinavians and muslims together
[15]: Muslim descriptions of germanic and slavic mythology! I hope i'll be able to insert some of these in a future update or bring an update based at these, since i am not an expert at germanic mythology any help in that matter would be great
[16]: Saxon/Polabian names for the Elbe River
[17]: Schwerin, Germany. Pronounced [zvjer'zyn]
[18]: The (central-eastern) sorbs sit around some pretty thicc mineral deposits, we have tin, iron, copper and silver, all near/around the Ore Mountains.
[19]: Lake Schwerin
[20]: Comes from the norse word for "isthmus" together with the name of the city, basically, "Isthmus of Zwierzyn"
[21]: Dummerstorf, Germany. Pronounced [gode'rat͡s]
[22]: Teterow, Germany. Pronounced [tetʲ'rov]
[23]: Loitz, Germany. Pronounced [losi't͡sa]
[24]: Strelitz, Germany. Pronounced [strεw't͡si]
[25]: Szczecin, Poland. Pronounced [ʃət͡si:t]
[2]: Now the westernmost slavic sub-tribe (being a sub-tribe of the Sorbs), the name comes from Common Slavic solъ, meaning "salt", in a obvious reference to the salt mines around the Saale River
[3]: Erfurt, Germany. Pronounced [i̯ɛɦɛsfu̯ɔʀ]
[4]: Slavic title, meaning basically prince, though its etymology is connected to King and König
[5]: Wittenberge, Germany. Pronounced [zyɛdɛnɔsʲ]
[6]: Oranienburg, Germany. The etymology is basically the same from the earlier name of the OTL city (Bützow), pronounced [byʃ'zɔuj]
[7]: Mecklenburg Castle and Surroundings, Germany. Etymology is literally "Big Castle", pronounced [viwtə'grod]
[8]: The basic muslim products starter pack, that immediately the slavs enter in love with
[9]: Kiel, Germany. Pronounced [sakɔdlet͡s]
[10]: Lübeck, Germany. Pronounced [lʲubit͡sɛ]
[11]: Stralsund, Germany. Pronounced [stʲrʲzawɔv]
[12]: Ralswiek, Germany. Pronounced [xau'z(u)ye:k]
[13]: Greifswald, Germany. Pronounced [mad͡zʲ'rykɒ]
[14]: You may recognize these posts as emporia, which started appearing at the middle of the 8th century, you may note that many of the muslim posts are being established at or near emporias, basically forcing the scandinavians and muslims together
[15]: Muslim descriptions of germanic and slavic mythology! I hope i'll be able to insert some of these in a future update or bring an update based at these, since i am not an expert at germanic mythology any help in that matter would be great
[16]: Saxon/Polabian names for the Elbe River
[17]: Schwerin, Germany. Pronounced [zvjer'zyn]
[18]: The (central-eastern) sorbs sit around some pretty thicc mineral deposits, we have tin, iron, copper and silver, all near/around the Ore Mountains.
[19]: Lake Schwerin
[20]: Comes from the norse word for "isthmus" together with the name of the city, basically, "Isthmus of Zwierzyn"
[21]: Dummerstorf, Germany. Pronounced [gode'rat͡s]
[22]: Teterow, Germany. Pronounced [tetʲ'rov]
[23]: Loitz, Germany. Pronounced [losi't͡sa]
[24]: Strelitz, Germany. Pronounced [strεw't͡si]
[25]: Szczecin, Poland. Pronounced [ʃət͡si:t]
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So se got s full fledge sorb state alongside elbe and baltic sea...one in cooperation with ukhawis muslims... Germany history Is so fun now with the carolineans being confined in Reims.
Amazing update, well worth the wait.
Amazing update, well worth the wait.
Maybe a 13th Warriors version might not suck?
last admiral
Banned
Maybe the "Heaven virgins for the martyrs" will be the Valkyries, if not similar to it. Having sexy-ass Germanic/Scandinavian Valkyrie for the martyr beside an express ticket to heaven might attract some vikings and other warriors to convert.[15]: Muslim descriptions of germanic and slavic mythology! I hope i'll be able to insert some of these in a future update or bring an update based at these, since i am not an expert at germanic mythology any help in that matter would be great
Also, do germanic mythology have warrior woman or something?
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Heh, we might see the Scandinavians preferring to convert to Muslim rather than Christian because of some similarities they share. Both being traders, promised heaven for dying in glory (also sweet virgins), and opportunities for land and loot for the adventurous (if you're the first to convert that means your neighbors are pagans so...)
Actually I think it's already there, what with the Muslims in this update focused more on trading we might see conversion like in Southeast Asia and Africa. The prophet himself was a trader, as were the Arabians. They certainly have a lot of experience in converting through this way, which might smooth the progress over Europe.
Yeah, the houri probably would end up being compared to the valkyries and vice-versa, though muslim norse probably would restrict it to only warriors/martyrs for cultural reasons (as the valkyries in norse mythology decided who died in battle), while the rest of the believers doesn't gain the privileges of having a houri. Though i might make something with Freyja (warrior woman, lol.) about this "rest", but idk.
And ya, many norse would just prefer Islam over Christianity, but the situation in Scandinavia right now will grant that not everyone will like Islam, actually, many will hate Islam and their followers, and this will generate some not so good things in the region.
German history is completely torn apart after just 30 years of TL...Noice. Though call the polabians as sorbs probably would put you in some wierd fight ITTL, isn't a confusion that they particularly like, tho yeah, the Obotrites are going from it to better. Thanks for appreciating!
Lol, well, we would already have Bēowulf, so isn't like we're without it (if you consider that Bēowulf was written/created before the PoD), and isn't about mythology at all. I was thinking about something like the pantheon war of norse mythology but any otger ideas would [also] be great
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krieger
Banned
We'll, it's not like the confederation form known from Xth century existed, at that time, Veleti still had their own prince (though prince didn't have that much to say), IOTL in 789 Veleti recognized an authority of guy called Drogowit, and he wasn't young when he battled Charles the Great, so most probably Veleti would be ruled by him ITTL and it could be him who is influenced by Minathulaty to go to the war with Racibor.
Recorded version of this name is Weligrad, idk if Arabs would spell it that way.
Is it Arab way to spell the name of this city? And the biggest trade point by this time was city Wolin, located on island bearing the same name, which overshadowed Szczecin. Why any ukhawia merchant with any wits would go to less important settlement to trade?
Sadly, art of mining wasn't even developed about this point on this terrain, and Avars were politically decaying - Samo's tribal union left it's mark on Avar overlordship. And Great Moravia is just about to rise, so I suspect that Avars won't last long. Even if not Moravians would take advantage of their decay - if Charles the Great isn't there and Avar khaganate is not entirely devastated, they might survive longer, but it'd mean that someone else than Moravians would just take advantage from their demise - it'd most likely either Bulgarians under Krum (who IOTL expanded his rule to the north and acted against Avars) or a certain prince located "near Vistula" (modern Lesser Poland) mentioned in biography of St.Cyril and Methodius who was reported to be "very strong" and only baptized by force by Svatopluk I of Moravia or just some northern Slavic ruler.
Northern Polabians (Veleti, Obdorites) were linguistically closer to Poles and Pomeranians (Kashubians) than they were to Sorbs - Polabians, Pomeranians and Poles belonged to so-called "Lechitic branch" of Western Slavic languages (although the difference is almost unnoticeable in the period we're talking about and it'd be far, far away from - Bohemian and Polish were mutually intelligible even in XVth century).
So no chances for nordic women becoming the circausian beauties... For now?
Ooh, thanks for the info, i'll edit accordingly.
Actually isn't the arab way of spelling it, it's the polabian way of spelling it [Veli -> Viltě/Grad -> Grod] (and actually the majority of this chapter's placenames are in polabian), just a foreshadowing of what's to come...
Not actually but something along these lines, it's the slavic spelling for the arab spelling of the slavic name (confused but yeah). Wolin wasn't (re)settled until the Late 8th Century-Early 9th Century (and entered proeminence at the Mid-8th Century), so actually when the merchants landed there they just...well, went southwards because no one was living there. And then they founded Shatsiit, which the slavs eventually called Šëčīt. More on that story in the update after the next.
Wasn't? AFAIK the silesian and bohemians mines are in activity since antiquity (and even when someone wasn't really mining, they sometimes just found randomly minerals sitting around), so i think that even with no mining in the area, the trade pressure could simply make them, well, mine. About the avars, i know that they're not in a good position, i just mentioned them to give a vieion about the scale of what's happening (tho they probably have something to trade). They will fall, at least as a polity with the influence that they have now/had before, but will remain around on the Pannonian Basin for quite some time, the slav trade boom just makes things worse earlier for the avars short-term, simply because it potentially shortens the slav state-formation by a chunk of time, so things can go south nearly immediately at any time.
No chances of being no chances my comrade
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Seems polabians changed things a Lot later on, and show how unique the region would be.
Whatever relationship Muslim and Nordics Will have...Will not be pretty
krieger
Banned
OK, understood (although in Middle Ages it'd probably not look like this, but let's ignore it for the sake of simplicity)
As far as I know, intensive gold mining began in XIIth century here, earlier it was underdeveloped.
As the name is rather how you would call it TTL present-day than the name you would call at TTL Middle Ages, isn't a problem at all.
About gold i really don't know, but i know that since antiquity, silesian iron and copper mines are being explored, though as i said, the commerce boom might cause a push for mining and thus turning into a non-problem soon.