Muslim World: The True Faith Timeline

well i read this timline starts with charles martel being alive
so yes pepin is still alive

also how did the caliphate took anatolia ? anatolia was going inland to anatolia was to much trouble that is why they attacked the capital directly
iam still curious about that

also did the siege of constaniople of 717 took place ? if it did the umayyed caliphate is doomed to death by the abbasids

also ok the caliphate took trasoxiana good that means that they are bordering the tang
1: Yes, Pepin is alive, but, many historians consider he less important/"great" than his predecessor and his sucessor, so i think it's possible for the muslims to win, but for now it's something i'm not going to play much
2: The Caliphate don't take over all of anatolia, he just establish a better position on it, even because it would be very crazy out of nothing the Umayyads take all of Anatolia
3: Yes and Yes (The Abbasid Revolution will still occur ITTL, and i have some ideas for it)
4: Yes, this will be important because soon the An Lushan rebellion will take place
 
1: Yes, Pepin is alive, but, many historians consider he less important/"great" than his predecessor and his sucessor, so i think it's possible for the muslims to win, but for now it's something i'm not going to play much
2: The Caliphate don't take over all of anatolia, he just establish a better position on it, even because it would be very crazy out of nothing the Umayyads take all of Anatolia
3: Yes and Yes (The Abbasid Revolution will still occur ITTL, and i have some ideas for it)
4: Yes, this will be important because soon the An Lushan rebellion will take place
1) he is forgotten but pepin had good achivements though a great man in his own right. He continued to build up the heavy calvary He maintained the standing army had found necessary to protect the realm and form the core of its full army in wartime. He not only contained the Iberian Muslims as his father had, but drove them out of what is now france and, as important, he managed to subdue the Aquitanians and the Gascons after three generations of on-off clashes, so opening the gate to central and southern Gaul and Muslim Iberia. He continued his father's expansion of the Frankish church and the institutional infrastructure that would prove the backbone of medieval Europe.
,
so if charles is still alive h will make reforms , pepin will follow and charlamage comes around ,pepin would reclaim some of his lands and charlagmane could kick them out

if by some miracle the muslims can take all of france they stop there the muslims are not going to beat the saxons it took the genuis of charlagmane thirty-three years to do it and it would be impossible for an overstreched caliphate to do the same.

2) ok that makes sense

3) this goes poorly in a sense and makes charlagames re conquest of the whole italic penunsila more possiible since the siege weaked severly the navy and lost the hegemony it had over the medditerrenian

4) ok
 
3) this goes poorly in a sense and makes charlagames re conquest of the whole italic penunsila more possiible since the siege weaked severly the navy and lost the hegem
The muslims not yet established a position in Italy, the Emirate of Sicily was established by the fatimids. And I would not be so sure that Charlemagne would have his time for this (i'm really trying to not spoiler ok?)

if by some miracle the muslims can take all of france they stop there the muslims are not going to beat the saxons it took the genuis of charlagmane thirty-three years to do it and it would be impossible for an overstreched caliphate to do the same.
The main factor for the Umayyads being overstretched was the lack of power consolidation in the conquered regions and its pro-Arab policy, which led to frequent revolts and, consequently, more expenses, this added to the berber revolt and the costly battles in Central Asia did not help either. Here the battles in Central Asia were less expensive and the berber revolt not happened, which is already a great addition if you count that did not have the 30-year campaign against the franks. But about the saxons, yes, this will be a real challenge ;)
 
The muslims not yet established a position in Italy, the Emirate of Sicily was established by the fatimids. And I would not be so sure that Charlemagne would have his time for this (i'm really trying to not spoiler ok?)



The main factor for the Umayyads being overstretched was the lack of power consolidation in the conquered regions and its pro-Arab policy, which led to frequent revolts and, consequently, more expenses, this added to the berber revolt and the costly battles in Central Asia did not help either. Here the battles in Central Asia were less expensive and the berber revolt not happened, which is already a great addition if you count that did not have the 30-year campaign against the franks. But about the saxons, yes, this will be a real challenge ;)
ok mate i will wait for it rigth now its ok but i feel its to rushed buy ok cheers
 
It can not happen at all, if the Abbassids revolt and take over the Ummayyads before the revolt happen, the reasons for its appearance disappear, because OTL the Abbassids were much more "tolerants", however they were weaker military, if an arabic caliphate is what you seek, you must keep the arabs in the command, OTL the arrival of turkic mercenaries precipited the downfall of the arabs and subsequently the islamic world.
Depends upon which period. Umayyads roused great internal issues related to the Iraqi-Syrian division, Shi'a disruption, Khawarij disruption and the issues related to the far eastern sectors of the Caliphal realms where there existed a degree of conversion to Islam that perturbed some segments of the Umayyad regime. However, the Umayyads favored Arab preferences generally, we may argue, were less oppressive than later Abbasid policies. Umayyad discrimination focused upon gathering incomes that were always short in supply due to Sharia restrictions on those items that may be taxed. In otl, the Umayyads attempted to overcome this 'tax issue' by way of expanding the lucrative jizya tax to a larger degree using archaic legal arguments or just general will to dictate these expansions. This situation however meant, that the Umayyad upper echelon generally tolerated general Christian, Jewish, convert, etc lifestyles in the Umayyad realms, at least more so than the Abbasid state.

Meanwhile, the Abbasid, though employing some aspects of Jewish and Nestorian scholarship into its regime and an earlier familiarity to the Shi'a movement in Iraq, their policies became less interested in gathering income as it became to enforce Islamic orthodoxy and extreme intolerance regarding groups within the Islamic world. Manichaens, less tormented under the Umayyad, were brought to devastation by the Abbasid Caliphate, who according to al-Tabari and al-Masudi, mass executions were committed against Manichaens, with perhaps thousands killed in Baghdad alone. Likewise, Abbasid authorities became extremely intolerant of all things Shi'a or Khawarij. In terms of the Shi'a, under the Mu'tazilite rule, the Abbasid caliphate banned all pilgrimages to Karbala-Najaf and committed attacks upon Shi'a communities and massacred villages of Shi'a who were known to be practicing Shi'a who cursed the Salaf (followers of Muhmmad) and or believed the Quran was distorted. Khawarij-Shurha in turn were essentially by-word for criminals and were treated as such... Not to mention, virulent anti-Sunni positions were taken against opposing scholars who opposed the Mu'tazilite view that the Quran is created, during the Mihna, were many scholars were killed and others were tortured and imprisoned, such as Shaykh Hanbal. Abbasid Caliphal military systems by the 9th century, became seen as foreign forces in some cases, with generals who had outlandish Turkic names and only a veil of Islamic belief. Such things led to great levels of sectional strife, especially in Iraq.

Ultimately, removing the tax on new-Muslims and offering a wider array of ethnic groups into civil society, might seem to be a more progressive stance, yet in its end, to the people of the time, the face of the Abbasid caliphate could possibly summed in a Turkic general whose name you may not pronounce well, dominating politics and lashing the whip at supposedly free Muslims. In this sense, who exactly was the foreign occupiers and intolerant? This may be an harsh view of the middle Abbasid period, yet it is important to have a second opinion on such matters.
 
Depends upon which period. Umayyads roused great internal issues related to the Iraqi-Syrian division, Shi'a disruption, Khawarij disruption and the issues related to the far eastern sectors of the Caliphal realms where there existed a degree of conversion to Islam that perturbed some segments of the Umayyad regime. However, the Umayyads favored Arab preferences generally, we may argue, were less oppressive than later Abbasid policies. Umayyad discrimination focused upon gathering incomes that were always short in supply due to Sharia restrictions on those items that may be taxed. In otl, the Umayyads attempted to overcome this 'tax issue' by way of expanding the lucrative jizya tax to a larger degree using archaic legal arguments or just general will to dictate these expansions. This situation however meant, that the Umayyad upper echelon generally tolerated general Christian, Jewish, convert, etc lifestyles in the Umayyad realms, at least more so than the Abbasid state.

Meanwhile, the Abbasid, though employing some aspects of Jewish and Nestorian scholarship into its regime and an earlier familiarity to the Shi'a movement in Iraq, their policies became less interested in gathering income as it became to enforce Islamic orthodoxy and extreme intolerance regarding groups within the Islamic world. Manichaens, less tormented under the Umayyad, were brought to devastation by the Abbasid Caliphate, who according to al-Tabari and al-Masudi, mass executions were committed against Manichaens, with perhaps thousands killed in Baghdad alone. Likewise, Abbasid authorities became extremely intolerant of all things Shi'a or Khawarij. In terms of the Shi'a, under the Mu'tazilite rule, the Abbasid caliphate banned all pilgrimages to Karbala-Najaf and committed attacks upon Shi'a communities and massacred villages of Shi'a who were known to be practicing Shi'a who cursed the Salaf (followers of Muhmmad) and or believed the Quran was distorted. Khawarij-Shurha in turn were essentially by-word for criminals and were treated as such... Not to mention, virulent anti-Sunni positions were taken against opposing scholars who opposed the Mu'tazilite view that the Quran is created, during the Mihna, were many scholars were killed and others were tortured and imprisoned, such as Shaykh Hanbal. Abbasid Caliphal military systems by the 9th century, became seen as foreign forces in some cases, with generals who had outlandish Turkic names and only a veil of Islamic belief. Such things led to great levels of sectional strife, especially in Iraq.

Ultimately, removing the tax on new-Muslims and offering a wider array of ethnic groups into civil society, might seem to be a more progressive stance, yet in its end, to the people of the time, the face of the Abbasid caliphate could possibly summed in a Turkic general whose name you may not pronounce well, dominating politics and lashing the whip at supposedly free Muslims. In this sense, who exactly was the foreign occupiers and intolerant? This may be an harsh view of the middle Abbasid period, yet it is important to have a second opinion on such matters.
Quite insteresting, i will make some research on these matters, you have some link?
 
Quite insteresting, i will make some research on these matters, you have some link?
What am I supposed to link to you? Not all history knowledge is composed in easily defined links. However, as sources, I derive these from the primary documents and retelling of these events, which are easily available online or in book format. Some in Arabic and others in English. If you use the search engine, typing in Islamic sources and such, there should be a few posts and threads where I list many of these generalized and specific histories in both Arabic, English and French texts.

The most basic of these works, regarding Umayyad and Abbasid history, can be ruminated from the works of al-Tabari; Tarikh al-Tabari. However, there is other general informational gatherings, depending upon the topic that has been gathered.
 
What am I supposed to link to you? Not all history knowledge is composed in easily defined links. However, as sources, I derive these from the primary documents and retelling of these events, which are easily available online or in book format. Some in Arabic and others in English. If you use the search engine, typing in Islamic sources and such, there should be a few posts and threads where I list many of these generalized and specific histories in both Arabic, English and French texts.

The most basic of these works, regarding Umayyad and Abbasid history, can be ruminated from the works of al-Tabari; Tarikh al-Tabari. However, there is other general informational gatherings, depending upon the topic that has been gathered.
Sorry for my mistake (I'm not exactly fluent in English), what I wanted to ask for was the sources. So, sorry for the mistake and thank you
 
Prologue: Chapter 5
Muslim World

Fulfilling the Holy Agreement: The Surrender

May 26, 739 - Pavia
A noble messenger arrives at Charles Martel on the afternoon of May 26, and he arrives, implying: "Oh, Lord Charles, i come here to deliver you a message of peace on behalf of my king, Liutprand"

Charles immediately requests the delivery of the message, which is passed, it is a request for surrender, it has been 1 year since the beginning of the siege, and no one came to the aid of Liutprand. Charles goes to meet Liutprand at the gates of Pavia, where, Liutprand officially surrenders.

With this, in Rome, an agreement is made with the Pope. The Duke of Spolleto will submit to the Papacy, and the Lombards will return all lands taken from the Pope, and the Franks will receive the rest of the kingdom. [1]

After the lombard danger was eliminated, the franks made their part of the deal. The Pope will now have to do his part, and help the franks in their attempt to expel the muslims. [2]

[1]: Yes, Charles Martel will have the title of King of the Lombards
[2]: So, I know that this chapter is short, but it is only to cover what was left in the last one (i.e the end of the campaign against the lombards)
 
Prologue: Chapter 6
Muslim World

This is Where They Die: A War Begins

July 27, 739 - Rome
He looks at the crowds, he looks at his chest and grabs the cross on his necklace. He is the Pope, Pope Gregory III, and he must do God's will, he knows he is to plunge Christendom into black and bloody times, where farmers abandon their fields to fight and so perhaps conquer riches, but come back with broken bones and heavy eyes with the horrors of war, shoulders hunched over by the weariness of the battle, all to be defeated and to return to their land and find her ransacked and burned, with weeds already being born again. But despite all this, he must do this, if not, who will stop the muslim advance? Who will offer eternal salvation to all!? He raises his head and says only two words: "DEUS VULT!!"

The war begins, a frank army is organized in Marseille while the Pope negotiates with the venetians their support in exchange for Carthage and Sardinia.

Soldiers march, cries of wars echo through the hills. We are in Toulose, and here again two armies collide, on one side the shrewd Algafeque, at the command of 60.000 soldiers, on the other, Charles Martel and his enormous army of 85.000 brave men. The battle begins calmly, small detachments advance to probe the forces of the enemy and soon after, return. Algafeque knows that he can not have the initiative of the attack, with the numbers so unfavorable he can not risk crossing the Garonne river in a frontal attack, then, as shrewd as ever, he sends a single man mounted, with a paper at hand, is a letter, but specifically, a letter to distract the enemy. While Charles Martel reads the letter, in the rear, the light and agile moorish cavalry retreats for the night to climb the river and cross it to the north. The soldiers camp without fighting each other, their commanders are not willing to cross the river without all the possible advantages, and so the day passes.

Algafeque calculates the time well and by noon begins to move towards the other side of the river and suddenly gives the impression of having suddenly changed his mind and begins to return to the other side of the river. The trap seems to work and the enemy soldiers appear to be advancing toward the river. He knows that he is giving himself a disadvantage at the moment, but he hopes that when his cavalry attacks the enemies behind his infantry, he has already established advantageous positions on his riverbank. The time has come, the cavalry arrives behind the enemies with all their strength and speed.

Everything goes downhill, Charles Martel remembers the ruse that defeated him in Tours and will not make the same mistake again. He had ordered the rear troops to remain alert and in square formations. Enemy cavalry arrives and is utterly repelled and disorganized, leading to a devastating onslaught by the frank heavy cavalry against the chaotic arabs. After this his soldiers continued advancing with full force and with constant reinforcements, the easy defeat of the moorish cavalry allowed that they did not lack soldiers in the frank lines. Agalfeque realizes its error too late, the frank heavy cavalry crosses the river by the right flank almost without opposition, because the arab soldiers are concentrated in the front line against the franks.

The moorish forces are destroyed, the units lose their cohesion and several soldiers begin to disband, their commanders respond too slowly and the enemy surrounds them. Unfortunately for Agalfeqeue he can not escape and is taken prisoner by the Christians. The strong fall one by one with the garrisons of Christian conscripts surrendering as soon as they realize that their enemies are actually their countrymen. And so Gaul returns to his former owners.
 
Prologue: Chapter 7
Muslim World

Victory in Ground, Defeat in Sea: The Battle of Messina

July 30, 739 - Venice
He looks at the window, at that city of crystalline waters, thousands of channels. He is in Venice, and in front of him is the Pope.

Negotiations are long, but they come to an agreement. The great venetian fleet will enter the war, and will eliminate the enemy fleet, guaranteeing the seas. In return the Venetians will have Carthage and Sardinia.

August 8, 739 - West of the Ionian Sea
The seas are not in the side of Venice, this he can guarantee. A huge storm, bigger than anyone an experienced navigator like he had ever seen. The winds blow water on the ships, when the waves do not, he ties itself on the mast so as not to be thrown into the sea in the great waves that flood the ship and soon after they leave, carrying food, drink and people.

As time passes, about a week after the Venetian fleet finally comes out of the terrible storm, it is weak, the sailors tired and the supplies missing. Good Admiral as he is, he directs his troops to cross the Strait of Messina and land in Naples, and then set out in search of the Arab fleet and destroy it.

August 10, 739 - Strait of Messina
He moves quickly through the strait, but when crossing a large arab fleet appears on the side, he tries to escape, but the enemy ships are faster. The arab ships approach the venetians and from there several soldiers come out with spears pointed forward, among them some with swords, and at the ends of the ship archers shoot at the enemies. The venetian resistance is fierce, but they are finally defeated after their admiral, the Doge of the glorious city of Venice, Orso Ipato, to be shot down by an arrow, shaking everyone's morals on the ship, causing many to surrender and removing cohesion of the fleet. Only 3 of the nearly 110 Venetian ships escaped and arrived in Naples.
 
Well..that is not how they expected...well that allow more mobility in the medditerean one..the duce will not be happy
 
Muslim World

Victory in Ground, Defeat in Sea: The Battle of Messina

July 30, 739 - Venice
He looks at the window, at that city of crystalline waters, thousands of channels. He is in Venice, and in front of him is the Pope.

Negotiations are long, but they come to an agreement. The great venetian fleet will enter the war, and will eliminate the enemy fleet, guaranteeing the seas. In return the Venetians will have Carthage and Sardinia.

August 8, 739 - West of the Ionian Sea
The seas are not in the side of Venice, this he can guarantee. A huge storm, bigger than anyone an experienced navigator like he had ever seen. The winds blow water on the ships, when the waves do not, he ties itself on the mast so as not to be thrown into the sea in the great waves that flood the ship and soon after they leave, carrying food, drink and people.

As time passes, about a week after the Venetian fleet finally comes out of the terrible storm, it is weak, the sailors tired and the supplies missing. Good Admiral as he is, he directs his troops to cross the Strait of Messina and land in Naples, and then set out in search of the Arab fleet and destroy it.

August 10, 739 - Strait of Messina
He moves quickly through the strait, but when crossing a large arab fleet appears on the side, he tries to escape, but the enemy ships are faster. The arab ships approach the venetians and from there several soldiers come out with spears pointed forward, among them some with swords, and at the ends of the ship archers shoot at the enemies. The venetian resistance is fierce, but they are finally defeated after their admiral, the Doge of the glorious city of Venice, Orso Ipato, to be shot down by an arrow, shaking everyone's morals on the ship, causing many to surrender and removing cohesion of the fleet. Only 3 of the nearly 110 Venetian ships escaped and arrived in Naples.

To quote Walter Skinner:

Shit!
 
Muslim World

Victory in Ground, Defeat in Sea: The Battle of Messina

July 30, 739 - Venice
He looks at the window, at that city of crystalline waters, thousands of channels. He is in Venice, and in front of him is the Pope.

Negotiations are long, but they come to an agreement. The great venetian fleet will enter the war, and will eliminate the enemy fleet, guaranteeing the seas. In return the Venetians will have Carthage and Sardinia.

August 8, 739 - West of the Ionian Sea
The seas are not in the side of Venice, this he can guarantee. A huge storm, bigger than anyone an experienced navigator like he had ever seen. The winds blow water on the ships, when the waves do not, he ties itself on the mast so as not to be thrown into the sea in the great waves that flood the ship and soon after they leave, carrying food, drink and people.

As time passes, about a week after the Venetian fleet finally comes out of the terrible storm, it is weak, the sailors tired and the supplies missing. Good Admiral as he is, he directs his troops to cross the Strait of Messina and land in Naples, and then set out in search of the Arab fleet and destroy it.

August 10, 739 - Strait of Messina
He moves quickly through the strait, but when crossing a large arab fleet appears on the side, he tries to escape, but the enemy ships are faster. The arab ships approach the venetians and from there several soldiers come out with spears pointed forward, among them some with swords, and at the ends of the ship archers shoot at the enemies. The venetian resistance is fierce, but they are finally defeated after their admiral, the Doge of the glorious city of Venice, Orso Ipato, to be shot down by an arrow, shaking everyone's morals on the ship, causing many to surrender and removing cohesion of the fleet. Only 3 of the nearly 110 Venetian ships escaped and arrived in Naples.
Nice very nice
 
Prologue: Chapter 8
Muslim World

La Reconquête? The Siege of Barcelona

September 9, 739 - Narbonne
After reconquering Gaul from the muslim invaders, Charles Martel now heads to Hispania, home to tens of thousands of christians, oppressed by their governors.

His first step is the capture of Septimania, which he uses as a point for the movement of supplies. With the autumn coming, he decides to wait until spring for, there yes, go with his army to enter Hispania with the aim of ridding the christians of good faith who live under the islamic terrorists. It will be a long wait, but a necessary one.

March 11, 740 - Barshiluna
Charles arrives in Barcelona, after leaving in march of Narbonne, having a friendly population in the villages in the way of its objective. Barcelona is an important commercial center and city of great christian population, but oppressed, it is his duty to liberate the good christians from the terrible arab dominion.

How many soldiers does the enemy have? He does not know. But he says his 24.000 is enough for now. He arrives taking in Barcelona and the siege begins. But there is a problem, there is no way to block the ports of the city, he can try to assault the city, maybe there are few soldiers there, maybe many. What will he do? Nobody knows, not even him.

April 2, 740 - Barshiluna
It's been 3 weeks since his forces surrounded the city in a futile effort to leave the city without supplies. With each passing day their troops become more tired of waiting and the enemies are more excited because they are still resisting. He thinks what to do for the thousandth time, maybe he can dig a tunnel into the city, but he may collapse while he is still inside, but it may work, but the tunnel is narrow, it would be a great advantage for the defenders. Charles does not know what to do and ends another day after much thought.

There is nothing to do, your best chance is to assault the fortress walls. He orders the catapults to fire and to build siege towers.

May 4, 740 - Barshiluna
It is certainly not going well, this is the third time they have attacked the hole they made in the wall, and this is the third time they are repulsed, always with heavy casualties, there remain only 17.000 men, the garrison of the city is bigger than expected. So far 1 month and 3 weeks have already passed.

But one of his officers gives an idea, his name, Louis Bayeux. He tells Charles his ideas. Apprehensive, Charles Martel accepts.

He orders that 3 merchant ships, which were stationed in Marseilles, be converted to military ships, in addition another 5 will be converted to simple shipping ships.

Charles tells his troops that the siege will be long, with his army he marches through the region in order to spread an image of liberator to the christians, not looting and burning the villages as a conqueror.

Happy, the local people support Martel and his army, they donate some supplies and inform the franks about the rumors of a huge arab army marching towards Barcelona, after hearing several reports and versions of the rumor Martel concludes that it is a force between 20 and 40 thousand soldiers.

Martel will be able to keep his siege for about more 6 months with the provisions he has, the spring still in the middle, it will take much until winter prevents the franks from having their supplies. Despite this, he has to finish the siege before the moors arrive, he estimates that he have about 3 months, this will probably not be enough, he needs to adapt his strategy to something faster. And that's what he'll do.

June 7, 740 - Barshiluna
Soon after the ships are ready, one month after the request of Martel, they arrive at the port of Barcelona. Instead of simply blocking the ports, 600 soldiers are boarded on the ships. Despite this, ships are managed in a way that pretends to block the arrival of resources, despite the number too small for the task.

During the night the 600 soldiers disembark trying to make as little noise as possible, a few minutes later the siege towers begin to move to the walls and the soldiers carry a battering ram toward the gates. Defending soldiers are alerted and awake, bells strike. The garrison of the city is directed towards the walls, no one gives attention to the port.

The defense of the walls goes well, the franks are almost being repulsed, until a surprise force attacks from behind, in several points of the walls the Arab troops are in total chaos and are quickly defeated, but in others not. In this way the soldiers of the northwestern part of the wall can repel the franks easily and begin to assist the forces around them, the result of the battle is uncertain.

The arabs are recovering quickly, the northern section of the wall has been recovered and in the west they are advancing rapidly, the franks are still disorganized, they have just climbed the walls, the concentration of troops is very uneven.

But things do not go on for long, the arabs, after dominating the west wall, are unable to advance further with the arrival of the second round of the assault, so they are retreating and being killed, one by one. Until the end. Finally, after 2 and a half months, the siege of Barcelona ends.

The population welcomes Charles with happiness, seeing the same as the liberator of them, but Martel has little time to celebrate, he suffered severe losses in the siege, and the big moorish army continues to come.
 
Top