Muslim World: The True Faith Timeline

[last admiral]

try to crush a religion and effectively crush a religion are different things, so...any success on that way are questionable, at least.

I know, the situation for former is paganism, which still survive(sorta) in form of neo-paganism, and the latter is like what happen to the zoroairiatism(the sassanid official faith).

Shhhhhhhhhhhhh, if you continue spoiling the TL i'll be forced to permanent ban you from posting in this thread ,

*on my knee*
NNNOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

 

[EnvarKadri]

Shhhhhhhhhhhhh, if you continue spoiling the TL i'll be forced to permanent ban you from posting in this thread , but well, try to crush a religion and effectively crush a religion are different things, so...any success on that way are questionable, at least.

It was quite plausible. As long as there is pagans states left in europe there will remain valid targets of jihad just like they were targets of crusades in otl. And as long as there are young men with no guaranteed big inheritance and capable leaders they will join jihad companies to get land/loot/fame. In realms like France, which are quite decentralized, local muslim lords will choose one their sons as sucesor and tell the rest "Here, a sword, armor and a horse. Also some money to pay the salaries of some of your men for some time, the rest you will have to get with promises of loot and glory. Go make your own realm in Germania/Slavia/Baltica, because that's God's work. Unlike your brother who is my favorite and gets my lands and serfs."

 

[krieger]

Shhhhhhhhhhhhh, if you continue spoiling the TL i'll be forced to permanent ban you from posting in this thread , but well, try to crush a religion and effectively crush a religion are different things, so...any success on that way are questionable, at least.

So TTL Teutonic Order would be...islamic? Because Christians couldn't develop their own military orders without crusades, and Bavaria is separated by Thuringia from Saxony. I don't see any place for military order state to arise in Saxony. Teutonic Order state was byproduct of Old Prussians being considerably behind their neighbours and being unable to form their own statehood and feudal fragmentation of Poland. Bakhyia couldn't fragment, since it's too small to do this and their ruler would be interested in gobbling bits of Saxony himself. Faransa wouldn't form it, because they lack border with Saxony. And Poland/Moravia/Bohemia (whichever Western Slavic state would be dominant in your TL) is still pagan and could surely expel every monastic order from these lands.

 

[last admiral]

And Poland/Moravia/Bohemia (whichever Western Slavic state would be dominant in your TL) is still pagan and could surely expel every monastic order from these lands.

What about Italy or Christians Balkans? Can monastic order develope from there?

Edit: Although Islam against monastic life, you can make Islam version to be more a mix between sufi order, madhrasah school and martial art society(like from wuxia and xianxia).

 

[EnvarKadri]

I know, the situation for former is paganism, which still survive(sorta) in form of neo-paganism, and the latter is like what happen to the zoroairiatism(the sassanid official faith).

I mostly agree. Zoroastrism and it's derivatives were monotheistic and quite centraliced/organiced with written traditions and scripture even before contact with christianity and islam. Even obvious pagans like Hindus had some kind of scripture that unified their different branches and a really developed identity and dense society of dense rural and urban settlements, things that are more difficult to penetrate by foreign invaders even with centuries of continous rule. You escentially need to convince the upper classes of how good is your religion for them.
In northern europe you had low density, mostly rural settlements, really decentraliced societies and religions. I'm quite sceptic of the chances of northern paganism to reform itself to something resambling hinduism or even zoroastrism and co. I think the one that had the most chances to do that in europe, thanks to their sophisticated filosophy and dense society, were the greco-romans.

 

[EnvarKadri]

What about Italy or Christians Balkans? Can monastic order develope from there?

Edit: Although Islam against monastic life, you can make Islam version to be more a mix between sufi order, madhrasah school and martial art society(like from wuxia and xianxia).

Why would the basically surrounded Kosmos in Italy create and order of military adventurers so his precious manpower trikles far away insted of defending his own lands from the really close military thread. The crusades and the military monastic orders where a way for a fragmented feudal but mostly safe christian europe to join efforts in fighting muslims in the frontier areas of the two worlds. Here you have less fragmentation inside christian europe but the msulims are not at "the gates" they are well into the house.
The only place were monastic orders would make sense would be in fragmented Britain, as the efforts of local bishops to build a group of volunteers to aid christian rulers in europe. The petty lords of the isles may not like it because it would take away young manpower and money for their petty squabbles, and whoever gives more to the christian cause in europe, will be the weakest in the local arena. But OTOH, it takes way the thirds sons and annoying title claimants to fight far away and hopefully die.

 

[Talus I of Dixie]

What about Italy or Christians Balkans? Can monastic order develope from there?

Edit: Although Islam against monastic life, you can make Islam version to be more a mix between sufi order, madhrasah school and martial art society(like from wuxia and xianxia).

Well, Kosmos isn't exactly in the better of the situations to be capable and willing to form monastic orders, and the slavs or are pagan (croats and slav-bulgars) or really don't care a lot about that (serbs).

But we always can have the infamous christian emigrés from lands conquered by muslims, heh...

So TTL Teutonic Order would be...islamic?

Basically, yes.

 

[krieger]

What about Italy or Christians Balkans? Can monastic order develope from there?

Edit: Although Islam against monastic life, you can make Islam version to be more a mix between sufi order, madhrasah school and martial art society(like from wuxia and xianxia).

No that much, they are under Byzantine influence ITTL and Byzantine Christianity was strongly against militarization of orders. In addition, even if they did so - they couldn't invade Saxony out of nowhere. Teutonic Order was supplied by Polish, German, Czech and French knights IOTL, with free pass to Prussia, it's version ITTL would need to sail across Europe with hostile Muslims everywhere. It would be long gone, before it even managed to reach Saxony.

Well, Kosmos isn't exactly in the better of the situations to be capable and willing to form monastic orders, and the slavs or are pagan (croats and slav-bulgars) or really don't care a lot about that (serbs).

But we always can have the infamous christian emigrés from lands conquered by muslims, heh...

Basically, yes.

Well, ITTL Poland/Moravia/Bohemia (depends on whether you want to do Magyar invasions and how they play out) would be strong contender for possesion of Saxon lands for this order and it'd need to divide it with whichever Western Slavic state is dominant.

 

[EnvarKadri]

No that much, they are under Byzantine influence ITTL and Byzantine Christianity was strongly against militarization of orders. In addition, even if they did so - they couldn't invade Saxony out of nowhere. Teutonic Order was supplied by Polish, German, Czech and French knights IOTL, with free pass to Prussia, it's version ITTL would need to sail across Europe with hostile Muslims everywhere. It would be long gone, before it even managed to reach Saxony.



Well, ITTL Poland/Moravia/Bohemia (depends on whether you want to do Magyar invasions and how they play out) would be strong contender for possesion of Saxon lands for this order and it'd need to divide it with whichever Western Slavic state is dominant.

I agree. Faransa focus is west of the Rhein (and for now they don't have stomach for big offensives, they are consolidating), Bakhya is mostly defensive/slave raiding/naval (altough, I think they can incoporate western Rheinland and western Saxony pretty succesfully if the opportunity arises), so the most lickely targets for the ghazis are likely germans on the Rhein land or the Bavarians in Alemannia. Of course, without a good army and plan, the focus will be on raiding for loot and slaves for quite some time. Although I am pretty sure there is plenty of army captains and generals and tribal leaders waiting for a chance to carve their own emirate. To a degree, we are waiting to three grand game changers to enter the game: the viking norse, the magyars and the turks.

 

[krieger]

I agree. Faransa focus is west of the Rhein (and for now they don't have stomach for big offensives, they are consolidating), Bakhya is mostly defensive/slave raiding/naval (altough, I think they can incoporate western Rheinland and western Saxony pretty succesfully if the opportunity arises), so the most lickely targets for the ghazis are likely germans on the Rhein land or the Bavarians in Alemannia. Of course, without a good army and plan, the focus will be on raiding for loot and slaves for quite some time. Although I am pretty sure there is plenty of army captains and generals and tribal leaders waiting for a chance to carve their own emirate. To a degree, we are waiting to three grand game changers to enter the game: the viking norse, the magyars and the turks.

I didn't deny that Bakhyia has a lot of room to territorial expansion at the expense of Saxons, it's just that Bakhyian ruler should have been an idiot to give away a piece of his land to some order-like organization. I think that Saxony is doomed to be divided between Bakhyia and dominant Western Slavic power. But it depends on action of the vikings, Magyars and Turks. Captains and tribal leaders wanting to carve out their own emirates aren't an order.

 

[EnvarKadri]

Captains and tribal leaders wanting to carve out their own emirates aren't an order.

On larger states, specially decentraliced, feudalization and even balkanization at the hands of governors is always a risk.
Although it looks unlikely for now.

 

[krieger]

On larger states, specially decentraliced, feudalization and even balkanization at the hands of governors is always a risk.
Although it looks unlikely for now.

Yes, but they won't give up their possesions to some god damn order.

 

[EnvarKadri]

Yes, but they won't give up their possesions to some god damn order.

Oh, that I absolutly agree.

 

[Nivek]

Actually not, Duqis and Mayurdumus are something around Duke (duh) and Grand-Prince, respectively. We have muslim Mayurdumus and Duqis, e.g, respectively, the Banu Meroveg (that are literally the merovingians) of Bārish and the Banu Harifū of Sysmanih.

Ah thanks for that, maybe as Banu Pippin(ie martel surviving childrens) was still christian i thought both were, but with the Meroveg being muslim...say about butterflies(a subtle FU to the Herstal-Martel as years they were their puppets? they even keep Barish/Paris).

 

[krieger]

Oh, that I absolutly agree.

So no place for TO-esque state in Saxony.

 

[Nivek]

So no place for TO-esque state in Saxony.

I think we're misunderstanding talus....i think is the allegory what will be of Saxony...as we say muslim don't do that..but what Stop the Border Muslims of Faransa sending seconds or third sons into 'groups' to spread the faith when there big chance to conflict with pagans? that seems so normal. Not unlike the turks and other muslim groups...

 

[krieger]

I think we're misunderstanding talus....i think is the allegory what will be of Saxony...as we say muslim don't do that..but what Stop the Border Muslims of Faransa sending seconds or third sons into 'groups' to spread the faith when there big chance to conflict with pagans? that seems so normal. Not unlike the turks and other muslim groups...

Maybe, but we should expect his opinion (@Talus I of Dixie) to be sure in this topic.

 

[Talus I of Dixie]

Maybe, but we should expect his opinion (@Talus I of Dixie) to be sure in this topic.

My opinion: Y'all far from the real truth , so you'll have to wait to see what'll happen :b

 

[Nivek]

My opinion: Y'all far from the real truth , so you'll have to wait to see what'll happen :b

An Update would help us a lot to change of topic buddy

Now i realize, we got a muslim Netherlands...what will be of Indonesia ITTL?

 

[Talus I of Dixie]

An Update would help us a lot to change of topic buddy

Now i realize, we got a muslim Netherlands...what will be of Indonesia ITTL?

I would post the Saxony update today but it delayed because i had some health problems yester and today, so maybe it will come tomorrow or wednesday, it all depends on me recovering .

Indonesia will be...interesting, hehehehehehh, for a previa: it will be divided, strongly divided.