Muslim World: The True Faith Timeline

Looking to to the great moravian expansion I think we should talk about the Ostsiedlung or Drang nach Osten. As always, some maps:
1580356305179.png

Better one here: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Deutsche_Ostsiedlung.png
Talus, you said that the Moravian took Regensburg, right? So their western border os the Naab River? Looking at the light orange part in the 2° map that was the area of german expansion negated by the pod, the dark orange was pre pod. The Ostsiedlung proper really picks up steam around the year 1000.
Charlemagne hasnt been around to stablich this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_March , so the red area of holstein remains Saxon, but with how thing are going it's probably under either Danish and/or slavic threat.
After the X century the Ostsiedlung will likely happen just because of the population presure from the german side:
"Population growth during the High Middle Ages stimulated movement of peoples from the Rhenish, Flemish, and Saxon territories of the Holy Roman Empire eastwards into the less-populated Baltic region and Poland. These movements were supported by the German nobility, the Slavic kings and dukes, and the medieval Church. The majority of this settlement took place at the expense of Polabian Slavs and pagan Balts (see Northern Crusades).
The future state of Prussia, named for the conquered Old Prussians, had its roots largely in these movements. As the Middle Ages came to a close, the Teutonic Knights, who had been invited to northern Poland by Konrad of Masovia, had assimilated and forcibly converted much of the southern Baltic coastlands."
Of course, as the wiki on Ostsiedlung notes, the process is inceparable from the politics of Charlemagne and the East France and HRE rulers, and of course the convertion of the slavs to christianity (really needed for them to let lots of christian germans into their lands).
"The Slavs living within the reach of Francia (later the Holy Roman Empire) were collectively called Wends or "Elbe Slavs". They seldom formed larger political entities, but rather constituted various small tribes, dwelling as far west as to a line from the Eastern Alps and Bohemia to the Saale and Elbe rivers. As the Frankish Empire expanded, various Wendish tribes were conquered or allied with the Franks, such as the Obotrites, who aided the Franks in defeating the West Germanic Saxons. The conquered Wendish areas were organized by the Franks into marches (German: Marken, meaning "border" or "border lands" in German), which were administered by an entrusted noble who collected the tribute, reinforced by military units. The establishing of marches was also accompanied by missionary efforts.
...
In most cases, the tribes of the marches were not stable allies of the empire. Frankish kings initiated numerous, yet not always successful, military campaigns to maintain their authority.
...
Under the rule of King Louis the German of East Francia and of Arnulf of Carinthia, the first waves of settlement were led by Franks and Bavarii, and reached the area of what is today Slovakia and what was then Pannonia (present-day Burgenland, Hungary, and Slovenia). These pioneering settlers were Catholics.
Although the first settlements led by the Franks and Bavarii followed the conquest of the Sorbs and other Wends in the early 10th century, and other campaigns by Holy Roman Emperors made migration possible, the beginning of a continuous Ostsiedlung is usually dated to around the 12th century."
For this to work, the Wends had to be beaten quite hard:
"In 983, the Polabian Slavs in the Billung and Northern Marches stretching from the Elbe to the Baltic Sea succeeded in a rebellion against the political rule and Christian mission of the Empire. In spite of their new-won independence, the Obotrites, Rani, Liutizian and Hevelli tribes were soon faced with internal struggles and warfare as well as raids from the newly constituted and expanding Piast dynasty (early Polish) state from the east, Denmark from the north and the Empire from the west, eager to reestablish her marches.
Weakened by ongoing internal conflicts and constant warfare, the independent Wendish territories finally lost the capacity to provide effective military resistance. From 1119 to 1123, Pomerania invaded and subdued the northeastern parts of the Liutizian lands. In 1124 and 1128, Wartislaw I, Duke of Pomerania, at that time a vassal of Poland, invited bishop Otto of Bamberg to Christianize the Pomeranians and Liutizians of his duchy. In 1147, as a campaign of the Northern Crusades, the Wendish Crusade was mounted in the Duchy of Saxony to retake the marches lost in 983. The crusaders also headed for Pomeranian Demmin and Szczecin (Stettin), despite these areas having already been successfully Christianized.
After the Wendish crusade, Albert the Bear was able to establish the Brandenburg march on approximately the territory of former Northern March, which since 983 had been controlled by the Hevelli and Liutizian tribes, and to expand it. The Havelberg bishopric was set up again to Christianize the Wends.
In 1164, after Saxon duke Henry the Lion finally defeated rebellious Obotrites and Pomeranian dukes in the Battle of Verchen, the Pomeranian duchies of Demmin and Stettin became Saxon fiefs, as did the Obodrite territory, which became known as Mecklenburg after its main "burg", fortified settlement. After Henry the Lion lost an internal struggle with Emperor Frederick I, Mecklenburg and Pomerania became part of the Holy Roman Empire in 1181."
Of course it's posible for the slavs to assimilate the germans, they did in otl:
"Colonization was the pretext for assimilation processes that went on for centuries. Assimilation occurred in both directions - depending on the region, either the German speakers, or the local non-Germanic population, was assimilated.
The Polonization process of Germans who had settled since the 13th century in Poland, in towns like Kraków (Krakau, Cracow) and Poznań (Posen) in the midst of Polish lands, lasted about two centuries. They constituted a patriciate which was not able to continue its isolated position without a continuation of newcomers from German lands. The Sorbs over time also assimilated German settlers in their midst, yet at the same time other Sorbs were themselves assimilated by the surrounding German-speaking population. Many Central and Eastern European towns remained for some centuries multi-ethnic melting pots.[33] "
As you can guess, in order to succesfully assimilate the germans slavs will need two things: strong states and (probably) to share religion with the germans. The social and church organization of christianity and islam will make the germans imposible (and probably not desirable) to assimilate by pagan slavs.
The settlers:
"The vast majority of the settlers were speakers of a variety of German dialects. In the northern zones Low German, at that time varieties of Lower-Saxonian, but also of early Netherlandish, that is to say, in modern terms, Dutch and Flemish. Next to these also Frisian. In the central zones speakers of Thuringian en Upper-Saxonian participated. In the southern zones speakers of East Frankish and Bavarian tongues were dominant. Significant numbers of Dutch, Frisians and Flemish as well as (though to a lesser extent) Danes, Scots or local Wends and (French speaking) Walloons also participated. The settlers were mostly landless younger children of noble families who could not inherit property. Entrepreneur-adventurers, often from lower-noble descent, called locators, played a recruiting, negotiating and co-ordinating role and established new villages, juridically and geo-physically. Of course, outlaws took the opportunity to escape but they were not appreciated because success depended upon discipline and solidarity.[32]
The settlers migrated in nearly straight West-to-East lines. As a result, the Southeast was settled by South Germans (Bavarians, Swabians), the Northeast by Saxons (in particular those from Westphalia, Flanders, Holland, and Frisia, while central regions were settled by Franks. As a result, the different German dialect groups expanded eastward along with their bearers, the "new" Eastern forms only slightly differing from their Western counterparts.
Settlers were invited by local secular rulers, such as dukes, counts, margraves, princes and (only in a few cases due to the weakening central power) the king. Among them the Slavic dukes (piasts) and kings. Also, settlers were invited by religious institutions such as monasteries and bishops, who had become mighty land-owners in the course of Christian mission. Often, a local secular ruler would grant vast woodlands and wilderness and a few villages to an order like the Cistercian monks, who would erect an abbey, call in settlers and cultivate the land.
The settlers were granted estates and privileges. Settlement was usually organised by a so-called Lokator (allocator of land), who was granted an important position such as the inheritable position of the village elder (Schulte or Schulze). Towns were founded and granted German town law. The agricultural, legal, administrative, and technical methods of the immigrants, as well as their successful proselytising of the native inhabitants, led to a gradual transformation of the settlement areas, as former linguistically and culturally Slavic areas became Germanised.
"
The germans did had a heavy impact on eastern europe so if they don't go their absence will be felt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostsiedlung#Rural_development
 
After the X century the Ostsiedlung will likely happen just because of the population presure from the german side:
But Ostsiedlung doesn't equate Ostsiedlung in every case of using this term. In fact, Ostsiedlung was more like a bunch of slightly connected processes than one mass migration with clear intent to germanize the Slavs. Unless mixed with political German control, settlers nativised very fast - in Poland, for example one of the most vocal opponents of Teutonic Order came from German settlers (like Zyndram of Maszkowice, whose name indicates clear German origins). Elbean Slavic language endured to XVIIIth century and it's extinction was more connected to Reformation (whose preachers were keen on introducing German everywhere in area of possibility instead of more "international" Latin) and population losses of 30 YW, which affected Slavs more than Germans. And German settling wasn't even stopped by paganism - despite being in a deep conflict with Teutonic Order and not being Christian, Germans arrived in Lithuania even before union with Poland (Lithuania was and is not Slavic, but it's very close culturally and religiously, so it's the best analogue for pagan Slavic states ITTL), for example of Jogaila's top advisors was Hanul, German merchant born in Vilnius, capital of Lithuania. And German lands are a big mess ITTL - if kingdom of Franks is destroyed, it means that good part of social order, especially in middle Germany (Thuringia and Swabia) collapses and leaves area vulnerable to instability, so it'd add a factor that people would be just fleeing their countries ravaged by constant wars and Muslim conquest east to seek better lives for themselves. Something similar happened in XVIIth century Ukraine, where people dissatsfied with feudal system of their native countries (PLC, Russia, Crimean Khanate) fled because this area was no man's land despite being under nominal PLC soveregnity. A bit of problem might be with religion - pagan Slavic rulers might be not so keen on inviting Christians to their countries, but most likely they would allow them to go if they needed them for some reasons. The problem is in area, which lacks even tribal chiefs - the northwestern part of Slavdom, lands close to Elbe. We should remember that if there is no Charlemagne around, Saxons aren't pushed west by Slavs (they did so OTL, because Obodrite chiefs helped Charlemagne in his conquest of Saxony) and their retain a bit of their land (Bakhyia is unlikely to fill in the gap, at least to full extent), but Saxon tribal order would be crumbling because of isolation and poverty and Bakhyian raids. In this circumstanses, I expect no man's land, similar to XVIIth century Ukraine to emerge roughly around Mecklenburg borders where society similar to Cossacks (who were mostly maritime pirates, despite their legend) containing mixed social rejects from both Slavic and Germanic lands (but with language and customs being predominantly Slavic with heavy Saxon borrowings) - in fact a lot of Elbean Slavs were succesfully looting other countries even IOTL. So expect interesting interaction with Vikings who might end up being pushed away from their own homes (and in fact, IOTL Slavs were able to succesfuly loot and destroy Hedeby, a biggest Danish city) and therefore heading west even more than IOTL. Lack of aquisition on Saxons and more loose social structures will make eastern part of Wendish land (Rugen, farther Pomerania and land of Havelians , which became Brandenburg IOTL) more vulnerable to conquest but the most likely conqueror would be nascent Poland.
 
I fully agree. About German assimilation I think they will assimilate but in most cases they will need to share an "ideological community" aka religion. After all, before modern nationalism, the most important factor in community identification was religion. Of course, sometimes they also cared about ethnic, regional, tribal, etc. differences but religious affiliation come first. At least for Abrahamic religions.
Pagan Germans can be assimilated with little problem by pagan slavic states. As long as the German states can't threat slavic territory or the still to assimilate german communities could be seen as 5th columnists. Even more in case of Christian Germans. The last group may assimilate is language but as long as they have a different religion they will remain a distinct community. Of course all the same applies with islam.
 
I wonder if one wendish tribe can unite the rest like the Lithuanians. Hell, without northern crusades the Lithuanians could assimilate more Baltic tribes.
 
I wonder if one wendish tribe can unite the rest like the Lithuanians. Hell, without northern crusades the Lithuanians could assimilate more Baltic tribes.
And how this woulf affect them? they could end up sunni muslim? Ibrahimites? Catholics? Orthodox? something else?
 
Looking to to the great moravian expansion I think we should talk about the Ostsiedlung or Drang nach Osten. As always, some maps:
View attachment 519932
Better one here: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Deutsche_Ostsiedlung.png
Talus, you said that the Moravian took Regensburg, right? So their western border os the Naab River? Looking at the light orange part in the 2° map that was the area of german expansion negated by the pod, the dark orange was pre pod. The Ostsiedlung proper really picks up steam around the year 1000.
Charlemagne hasnt been around to stablich this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_March , so the red area of holstein remains Saxon, but with how thing are going it's probably under either Danish and/or slavic threat.
After the X century the Ostsiedlung will likely happen just because of the population presure from the german side:
"Population growth during the High Middle Ages stimulated movement of peoples from the Rhenish, Flemish, and Saxon territories of the Holy Roman Empire eastwards into the less-populated Baltic region and Poland. These movements were supported by the German nobility, the Slavic kings and dukes, and the medieval Church. The majority of this settlement took place at the expense of Polabian Slavs and pagan Balts (see Northern Crusades).
The future state of Prussia, named for the conquered Old Prussians, had its roots largely in these movements. As the Middle Ages came to a close, the Teutonic Knights, who had been invited to northern Poland by Konrad of Masovia, had assimilated and forcibly converted much of the southern Baltic coastlands."
Of course, as the wiki on Ostsiedlung notes, the process is inceparable from the politics of Charlemagne and the East France and HRE rulers, and of course the convertion of the slavs to christianity (really needed for them to let lots of christian germans into their lands).
"The Slavs living within the reach of Francia (later the Holy Roman Empire) were collectively called Wends or "Elbe Slavs". They seldom formed larger political entities, but rather constituted various small tribes, dwelling as far west as to a line from the Eastern Alps and Bohemia to the Saale and Elbe rivers. As the Frankish Empire expanded, various Wendish tribes were conquered or allied with the Franks, such as the Obotrites, who aided the Franks in defeating the West Germanic Saxons. The conquered Wendish areas were organized by the Franks into marches (German: Marken, meaning "border" or "border lands" in German), which were administered by an entrusted noble who collected the tribute, reinforced by military units. The establishing of marches was also accompanied by missionary efforts.
...
In most cases, the tribes of the marches were not stable allies of the empire. Frankish kings initiated numerous, yet not always successful, military campaigns to maintain their authority.
...
Under the rule of King Louis the German of East Francia and of Arnulf of Carinthia, the first waves of settlement were led by Franks and Bavarii, and reached the area of what is today Slovakia and what was then Pannonia (present-day Burgenland, Hungary, and Slovenia). These pioneering settlers were Catholics.
Although the first settlements led by the Franks and Bavarii followed the conquest of the Sorbs and other Wends in the early 10th century, and other campaigns by Holy Roman Emperors made migration possible, the beginning of a continuous Ostsiedlung is usually dated to around the 12th century."
For this to work, the Wends had to be beaten quite hard:
"In 983, the Polabian Slavs in the Billung and Northern Marches stretching from the Elbe to the Baltic Sea succeeded in a rebellion against the political rule and Christian mission of the Empire. In spite of their new-won independence, the Obotrites, Rani, Liutizian and Hevelli tribes were soon faced with internal struggles and warfare as well as raids from the newly constituted and expanding Piast dynasty (early Polish) state from the east, Denmark from the north and the Empire from the west, eager to reestablish her marches.
Weakened by ongoing internal conflicts and constant warfare, the independent Wendish territories finally lost the capacity to provide effective military resistance. From 1119 to 1123, Pomerania invaded and subdued the northeastern parts of the Liutizian lands. In 1124 and 1128, Wartislaw I, Duke of Pomerania, at that time a vassal of Poland, invited bishop Otto of Bamberg to Christianize the Pomeranians and Liutizians of his duchy. In 1147, as a campaign of the Northern Crusades, the Wendish Crusade was mounted in the Duchy of Saxony to retake the marches lost in 983. The crusaders also headed for Pomeranian Demmin and Szczecin (Stettin), despite these areas having already been successfully Christianized.
After the Wendish crusade, Albert the Bear was able to establish the Brandenburg march on approximately the territory of former Northern March, which since 983 had been controlled by the Hevelli and Liutizian tribes, and to expand it. The Havelberg bishopric was set up again to Christianize the Wends.
In 1164, after Saxon duke Henry the Lion finally defeated rebellious Obotrites and Pomeranian dukes in the Battle of Verchen, the Pomeranian duchies of Demmin and Stettin became Saxon fiefs, as did the Obodrite territory, which became known as Mecklenburg after its main "burg", fortified settlement. After Henry the Lion lost an internal struggle with Emperor Frederick I, Mecklenburg and Pomerania became part of the Holy Roman Empire in 1181."
Of course it's posible for the slavs to assimilate the germans, they did in otl:
"Colonization was the pretext for assimilation processes that went on for centuries. Assimilation occurred in both directions - depending on the region, either the German speakers, or the local non-Germanic population, was assimilated.
The Polonization process of Germans who had settled since the 13th century in Poland, in towns like Kraków (Krakau, Cracow) and Poznań (Posen) in the midst of Polish lands, lasted about two centuries. They constituted a patriciate which was not able to continue its isolated position without a continuation of newcomers from German lands. The Sorbs over time also assimilated German settlers in their midst, yet at the same time other Sorbs were themselves assimilated by the surrounding German-speaking population. Many Central and Eastern European towns remained for some centuries multi-ethnic melting pots.[33] "
As you can guess, in order to succesfully assimilate the germans slavs will need two things: strong states and (probably) to share religion with the germans. The social and church organization of christianity and islam will make the germans imposible (and probably not desirable) to assimilate by pagan slavs.
The settlers:
"The vast majority of the settlers were speakers of a variety of German dialects. In the northern zones Low German, at that time varieties of Lower-Saxonian, but also of early Netherlandish, that is to say, in modern terms, Dutch and Flemish. Next to these also Frisian. In the central zones speakers of Thuringian en Upper-Saxonian participated. In the southern zones speakers of East Frankish and Bavarian tongues were dominant. Significant numbers of Dutch, Frisians and Flemish as well as (though to a lesser extent) Danes, Scots or local Wends and (French speaking) Walloons also participated. The settlers were mostly landless younger children of noble families who could not inherit property. Entrepreneur-adventurers, often from lower-noble descent, called locators, played a recruiting, negotiating and co-ordinating role and established new villages, juridically and geo-physically. Of course, outlaws took the opportunity to escape but they were not appreciated because success depended upon discipline and solidarity.[32]
The settlers migrated in nearly straight West-to-East lines. As a result, the Southeast was settled by South Germans (Bavarians, Swabians), the Northeast by Saxons (in particular those from Westphalia, Flanders, Holland, and Frisia, while central regions were settled by Franks. As a result, the different German dialect groups expanded eastward along with their bearers, the "new" Eastern forms only slightly differing from their Western counterparts.
Settlers were invited by local secular rulers, such as dukes, counts, margraves, princes and (only in a few cases due to the weakening central power) the king. Among them the Slavic dukes (piasts) and kings. Also, settlers were invited by religious institutions such as monasteries and bishops, who had become mighty land-owners in the course of Christian mission. Often, a local secular ruler would grant vast woodlands and wilderness and a few villages to an order like the Cistercian monks, who would erect an abbey, call in settlers and cultivate the land.
The settlers were granted estates and privileges. Settlement was usually organised by a so-called Lokator (allocator of land), who was granted an important position such as the inheritable position of the village elder (Schulte or Schulze). Towns were founded and granted German town law. The agricultural, legal, administrative, and technical methods of the immigrants, as well as their successful proselytising of the native inhabitants, led to a gradual transformation of the settlement areas, as former linguistically and culturally Slavic areas became Germanised.
"
The germans did had a heavy impact on eastern europe so if they don't go their absence will be felt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostsiedlung#Rural_development
But Ostsiedlung doesn't equate Ostsiedlung in every case of using this term. In fact, Ostsiedlung was more like a bunch of slightly connected processes than one mass migration with clear intent to germanize the Slavs. Unless mixed with political German control, settlers nativised very fast - in Poland, for example one of the most vocal opponents of Teutonic Order came from German settlers (like Zyndram of Maszkowice, whose name indicates clear German origins). Elbean Slavic language endured to XVIIIth century and it's extinction was more connected to Reformation (whose preachers were keen on introducing German everywhere in area of possibility instead of more "international" Latin) and population losses of 30 YW, which affected Slavs more than Germans. And German settling wasn't even stopped by paganism - despite being in a deep conflict with Teutonic Order and not being Christian, Germans arrived in Lithuania even before union with Poland (Lithuania was and is not Slavic, but it's very close culturally and religiously, so it's the best analogue for pagan Slavic states ITTL), for example of Jogaila's top advisors was Hanul, German merchant born in Vilnius, capital of Lithuania. And German lands are a big mess ITTL - if kingdom of Franks is destroyed, it means that good part of social order, especially in middle Germany (Thuringia and Swabia) collapses and leaves area vulnerable to instability, so it'd add a factor that people would be just fleeing their countries ravaged by constant wars and Muslim conquest east to seek better lives for themselves. Something similar happened in XVIIth century Ukraine, where people dissatsfied with feudal system of their native countries (PLC, Russia, Crimean Khanate) fled because this area was no man's land despite being under nominal PLC soveregnity. A bit of problem might be with religion - pagan Slavic rulers might be not so keen on inviting Christians to their countries, but most likely they would allow them to go if they needed them for some reasons. The problem is in area, which lacks even tribal chiefs - the northwestern part of Slavdom, lands close to Elbe. We should remember that if there is no Charlemagne around, Saxons aren't pushed west by Slavs (they did so OTL, because Obodrite chiefs helped Charlemagne in his conquest of Saxony) and their retain a bit of their land (Bakhyia is unlikely to fill in the gap, at least to full extent), but Saxon tribal order would be crumbling because of isolation and poverty and Bakhyian raids. In this circumstanses, I expect no man's land, similar to XVIIth century Ukraine to emerge roughly around Mecklenburg borders where society similar to Cossacks (who were mostly maritime pirates, despite their legend) containing mixed social rejects from both Slavic and Germanic lands (but with language and customs being predominantly Slavic with heavy Saxon borrowings) - in fact a lot of Elbean Slavs were succesfully looting other countries even IOTL. So expect interesting interaction with Vikings who might end up being pushed away from their own homes (and in fact, IOTL Slavs were able to succesfuly loot and destroy Hedeby, a biggest Danish city) and therefore heading west even more than IOTL. Lack of aquisition on Saxons and more loose social structures will make eastern part of Wendish land (Rugen, farther Pomerania and land of Havelians , which became Brandenburg IOTL) more vulnerable to conquest but the most likely conqueror would be nascent Poland.
I fully agree. About German assimilation I think they will assimilate but in most cases they will need to share an "ideological community" aka religion. After all, before modern nationalism, the most important factor in community identification was religion. Of course, sometimes they also cared about ethnic, regional, tribal, etc. differences but religious affiliation come first. At least for Abrahamic religions.
Pagan Germans can be assimilated with little problem by pagan slavic states. As long as the German states can't threat slavic territory or the still to assimilate german communities could be seen as 5th columnists. Even more in case of Christian Germans. The last group may assimilate is language but as long as they have a different religion they will remain a distinct community. Of course all the same applies with islam.
In that case i'll leave that in the open, because stuff will happen in Germany and maybe (or maybe not) butterfly the eastward migration, though i agree with the assimilation thing, different-religion communities are much less-likely to be assimilated than the other way around. And maybe the migration will go in other way, heh, at least for some germanic groups. Though the cossack-like stuff is likely and probably will be used by me for sheer awesomeness :p
I wonder if one wendish tribe can unite the rest like the Lithuanians. Hell, without northern crusades the Lithuanians could assimilate more Baltic tribes.
And how this woulf affect them? they could end up sunni muslim? Ibrahimites? Catholics? Orthodox? something else?
I lost track of who the Ibrahimites were.
1. Though without the northern crusades the lithuanians may not be instigated to expand at all. And about any unification of the Wends, well, i have some cool stuff to cover about them, though at least for now any unification won't happen.
2. Actually, the lithuanians assimilating other tribes probably doesn't change much their religious options, and IOTL they carried far with paganism.
3. The ibrahimites is a cool name for post-caliphate umayyads, who are now in exile waiting for their next opportunity...
 
I wonder if one wendish tribe can unite the rest like the Lithuanians. Hell, without northern crusades the Lithuanians could assimilate more Baltic tribes.
Wends were very anarchistic and not prone to accept any ducal power. Lithuania is so far removed from the point of the topic, that discussing about it makes no sense I only compared pagan Slavs to pagan Lithuanians. The most likely result of Germany not being unified power is Wends being subjugated by nascent Poland (if it arises ITTL). You can count this as a "unification" because then-Polish and then-Wendish didn't differ in any significant way, native speaker of one could communicate without a translator with native speaker of another without much troubles.

In that case i'll leave that in the open, because stuff will happen in Germany and maybe (or maybe not) butterfly the eastward migration, though i agree with the assimilation thing, different-religion communities are much less-likely to be assimilated than the other way around. And maybe the migration will go in other way, heh, at least for some germanic groups. Though the cossack-like stuff is likely and probably will be used by me for sheer awesomeness :p
Well, your Germany is very prone to conquest, because it's essentialy Balkan-like clusterfuck. In long term, I expect division of German lands between Slavic states (united or not, but ITTL there are a chances that a state uniting Western Slavs as a single unit would arise), Faransa and Bakhiya with some semi-independent relics of native culture like Bavaria.
 
Have the Magyars migrated into the Pannonia Basin yet?If so the Basin might be a alternative migration route of the Germans instead of going to the east of the Elbe. Germanic Maygar hybrid culture anyone?
 
Have the Magyars migrated into the Pannonia Basin yet?If so the Basin might be a alternative migration route of the Germans instead of going to the east of the Elbe. Germanic Maygar hybrid culture anyone?
No, they didn't migrate yet and I can't really see Germans taking political power anywhere in the east ITTL.
 
The Age of Collapse: Chapter 8
Muslim World - The Age of Collapse
Germania After the Franks II: The Begginings of Bakhyia


Foundation of the Lowlands (750-757)
Bakhyia emerged in an obscure period in the region, with chaos reigning over Faransa, the area was open to suffer at the hands of Saxon and Ibrahimite raids. After news of the beyond poor ibrahimite treatment of Christians, the local population also did not intend to declare allegiance to the rebels.

In this time of chaos, the zaidi community in the small town of Broekzele [1] was of great importance, with the zaidis entering into an agreement with the local christian population for the creation of an alliance for self-defense, which quickly counted on the participation of rural communities on the areas around the city, and without much spilled blood, the most important locations in the north of the former roman province of Gallia Belgica were united under the leadership of Broekzele's Zaidis.

With the formation of the alliance in 750, Bakhyia's first victory was the Battle of Musāh [2], where an army of 7.000 bakhyians defeated a great saxon raiding party, giving great credibility to the zaidis and legitimizing their leadership.

After a successful year of defending their territories, groups of frisians began to join the alliance, with the conversion of one of the group's leaders to Islam in turn to cement the alliance and ensure the good treatment of the pagans under the zaidis, thereby emerging the figure of Arend, a frisian chief from the outskirts of Urekt [3], who quickly made his name by defeating saxon raids in the north, making him popular in Bakhyia, and of course, attracting the attention of Broekzele's Zaidis. At the first meeting [4] of the Bakhyians in 753, Arend was appointed by the Imām Talib al-Alb [5] as commander against threats from the south, that is, against the Ibrahimites.

In 754, the ibrahimites sent an army to subdue Bakhyia, surrounding Broekzele and forcing Arend to narrowly escape the city to gather reinforcements. This resulted, on August 19, in the Battle of Broekzele, where Arend and his 14.000 soldiers defeated the ibrahimite army (which had about 25.000 soldiers), saving Bakhyia and giving the army the final blow in the Battle of Almina 'Kabir [6], resulting in a large territorial expansion of the alliance to the south.

After that campaign, Arend returned to his "normal life" of fighting Saxons, while he was celebrated by the population as a hero, and subsequently causing the conversion of several to Islam on his behalf. He would lead a raid against the saxons that would devastate much of the most western parts of Saxony, only to stop marching in the capital Marklo due to dangers at home.

These dangers would be another invasion from the south, this time from the Faranes, who had already defeated a Bakhyian army at the Battle of Ghūskur, Arend gathered all the forces he could and faced the enemy in Āt [7], where he achieved a crucial victory against Azure, however the losses did not destroy Azure's army, they only forced it to retreat to the territories previously taken [8]. Not wanting to cause their own death, the bakhyians were content to lose a piece of territory in exchange for maintaining their long-term independence.

Consolidation, the Seas and Imām Arind (757-766)
After the Battle of Āt, Bakhyia was able to start greater internal work, now with Arend taking care of the saxon border that was quiet for the day, Imām Talib soon started to develop a more advanced form of government, still based on the initial idea of alliance, but with a more centralized turn.

The most important part of the government was Huquq al-Madina, or, City Rights [9], where each city recognized by the Imām in Broekzele received privileges of self-government, free trade and the right to send advisers to the Shura [10]. Such self-government was done through councils organized by the city itself, and how other things worked depended on city to city, some, like Urekt and Kalis [11], had an elected qayid to govern the city as an executive, while others developed a larger chamber to serve as an executive, with a central head only being elected in an emergency (as in military operations), examples of the late are Grunnyn [12] and Alaakoe [13].

The aforementioned Shura became a kind of parliament, with each recognized city sending 3 representatives to the Shura, all actions of the Imām should be consulted by representatives of the cities that would be affected by the decisions, and among them a simple majority approved or disapproved a decision, obviously, in matters of national level, all of the Shura are consulted. One note however, for you to be a representative at the Shura, you must be a muslim.

The establishment of this style of government (which was officially promulgated in 759) greatly benefited the commercial ability of Bakhyian citizens, and also the cities, since you needed to be in one to have political power, many migrated to cities in search of an influence in the government. This trade was increased by the naval presence of the ukhawias, who were in the midst of their expansion into the northern seas, also influencing coastal cities to develop their own fleets, which would result in the first conflict after the consolidation of Bakhyia.

The main commercial activity of the bakhyians was the sale of agricultural surplus, but it soon became simple commercial traffic and its benefits, with cities importing products from the ukhawias and their fortunes from the north, processing them, and reselling south, this relationship was mainly present with the ukhawias of Juzuralqna and Nuteqali.

As a result, during this period the rise of manufacturing activity in Bakhyia began, with the processing of amber, wool, fur and other products [14] becoming a profitable and extensive activity throughout the country, although the work is still recent and not perfected as in later years, bakhyian products would soon become popular in the regions north of the mediterranean.

In the meantime, Imām Talib died in 764, and soon a new governor had to be elected, the result was the almost unanimous choice on Arend as Imām, that is, Imām Arind [15]. His first actions as Imām were to build fortifications on the frontiers, some that in the future would become cities in their own right, such as Alaakoe, Lūk, Dūtingen and Rijsel [16], significantly improving Bakhyia's defense against raids.

Another important measure was Arind's patronization of commercial expeditions to the east and north, which were already taking place as a way of ensuring the supply of raw materials (such as amber and iron) by cutting the middlemen (the ukhawias), giving prominence to the merchant class that eventually emerged. At the same time, Arind built mosques in major cities, and the process of urban expansion continued even further as time passed, and with that, a surprisingly rapid adaptation of the local population to Islam [17].

Everything looks very beautiful right? But the world of commerce is dangerous, and the first war on this fierce world would take place under the reign of Arind.

King Offa's War, the Channel Clash and Saxon Invasion (766-771)
On the other side of the Dovár Strait [18], Brittania was undergoing the (re)creation of Mercia's hegemony, which after the rise of King Offa was emerging again. Offa quickly subdued Essex and Sussex [19], with everything looking under control until then. However, when Offa invaded Kent in 766, the result would be much greater'n'worse than he imagined.

The invasion of Kent was followed by Eardwulf of Kent crying out for help from his business partners across the channel, in exchange for concessions and commercial benefits in the country, seeing the opportunity, the ukhawias of Juzuralqna and Nuteqali responded to the call with the bakhyian cities of Kalis, Aantwarp, Teksel and Allamaniem [20] following up as well.

Soon they sent a large fleet carrying 21.000 mercenaries, among them, faranishmen, bakhyians, saxons and al-Mughtaribin [21], who disembarked in Dovár under the command of al-Mughtaribin Hāzim ibn Asad, marching to meet the forces of Eardwulf, resulting in the Battle of Mædestein [22], where Offa of Mercia and his army were routed by Eardwulf and his mercenaries. The victory ensured Kent's independence for the time being, but Offa wasn't going to give up so easily, so he called his allies into the fray, while gathering another army to invade Kent.

Its allies were, basically, the other ukhawias, being: Alskatsegira, Minathulaty and Al-Hafar. With 767 starting with the beginning of the fight over the channel, which is summed up in a lot of piracy, giving a drastic affect in other people's businesses, and raids, many of them.

Piracy and raids soon affected Bakhyia on a national scale, when a squadron of ships brought in 4.000 soldiers who surrounded Kalis, only to retreat after a five times larger bakhyian army appeared, resulting in the Shura entering a near-unanimous agreement on war, and well, Arind indeed waged war.

The first battles of the general war were naval, mainly between groups of raiders protecting or attacking merchant cargo, and of course, the occasional attack on unprotected coastal settlements. The first real battle was an engagement between a fleet of 48 alkatsegiran ships and a fleet of 55 bakhyian ships at the Suðern Bóht [23], where the bakhyians emerged victorious, guaranteeing their control of the eastern entrance to the Channel by 767, after winning other engagements in the Strait of Dovár, causing widespread commercial losses for the enemy ukhawias, and with that, an effective economic slaughter against the enemies.

In 768, Offa invaded Kent again, this time with an army of 28.000 soldiers, and this time managing to defeat Eardwulf and his mercenaries at the Battle of Sewonark [24], but not destroying his army, which would retreat across the country to secure itself in the Battle of Folkstein [25] with the help of levies leaving their ships to reinforce the battle (after Kent's allies won a simultaneous naval battle), forcing Offa to retreat and allow Eardwulf to control the far east of Kent.

At sea, Bakhyia and his allies suffered defeats on the channel, allowing breathing room for Mercia's allies, despite the strategically decisive victory in Folkstein to counterbalance that. We had the first engagement recorded in the Baltic Sea, the Battle of the Blekinge [26], where a small group of ships from Minathulaty defeated a Bakhyian merchant fleet that had landed in the region.

In 769, everything would go downhill when Cynewulf of Wessex invaded Sussex (under Mercia's sovereignty), opening a second front against Mercia and Eadbehrt of Northrumbia invasion south into Mercia (which despite only looting the north of Mercia is also something for if any), and soon Offa tried to make peace with Eardwulf, promising to return all his land and at the same time asking for help from the mercenaries who were serving under Eardwulf to help him in exchange for a raise in their salaries, and well...both accepted.

However, the war between muslims was not over yet, and Bakhyia insisted on doing everything to end it in his favor, defeating a united enemy fleet of 152 ships with a fleet of 78 ships + allies (about 120 ships) in the Battle of Wit [27], resulting in total bakhyian superiority in the channel. After this victory, Bakhyia and his allies would join a force to surround Minathulaty and force the surrender of the ukhawias. The siege ended up lasting more than a year, with many loads of reinforcements from the other ukhawias breaking through the blockade and entering the city, until the bakhyians opened for negotiations due to a saxon invasion, ending with the losers paying considerable reparations for Bakhyia and its llies, in addition to recognizing their special status in Kent.

About the invasion, well, it was commanded by Duke Widukind [28] of Saxony, with the aim of raiding and if possible to force the Bakhyians to pay tribute to the saxons, initially everything went well with the ribats' garrisons being defeated at the Battle of Heerlen, allowing Widukind to plunder the eastern fields. Soon, Arind took action to scare away Widukind, and after securing peace with the ukhawias, defeated him in his second invasion, destroying the saxon army and forcing Widukind to pay reparations in exchange for not being ransacked, giving Arind even more popularity. After the brief Saxon invasion, Arind would enter the last phase of his government, which would be (mostly) peaceful.

I didn't went into much detail about Saxony because the chapter would turn out to be too massive and would probably delay up for more, like, 2 days the posting, so for the sake of my sanity, if any of you want to know anything about what's going on Saxony, just...ask?
[1]: Brussels, Belgium
[2]: On the Meuse, the battle per se happened on the contrary bank to Hertzal
[3]: Utrecht, Netherlands
[4]: Basically where representants of the members of the alliance group up to plan stuff and discuss problems and solve them
[5]: He's basically the mind behind the existence of Bakhyia, a shockingly good diplomat supported by the zaidi philosophy and a good amount of wiseness, though as you can see he is somewhat shadowed by Arend's successes. His title, al-Alb, means "The Father"
[6]: Boulogne-sur-Mer, France
[7]: Ath, Belgium
[8]: In this case, the lands you can recognize as al-Shamaliu
[9]: So, OTL German Town Rights were based from Flemish (TTL Bakhyian) Law, so isn't too stretched to see the indepedent development of these laws
[10]: Islamic parliament, though it's based on "who will be affected" rather than "universal consensus" (a.k.a modern parliaments)
[11]: Utrecht, Netherlands and Calais, France
[12]: Groningen, Netherlands
[13]: Aachen, or, more accurately, Ribat al-Ākwi, founded by Arend
[14]: Ambar comes from the baltic tribes, more specifically ~ohio~ the Sambians and the Pogesanians, either prussians. Wool comes from Brittania, primarily Wessex and Kent because of competition on the Mercian markets. Fur comes from Scandinavia and the more eastern regions of the Baltic, and Scotia
[15]: Arabization, duh
[16]: Aachen (again), Liège, Doetinchem and Lille
[17]: The Zaidis have a lot of legitimacy for the people, and it results on (Shi'a-Zaidi) Islam having a lot of legitimacy, and then, a lot of conversion ensues, especially by the still-pagan frisians
[18]: Strait of Dover, i'll don't tell you why the fuck the name is that way, because spoilers ;b
[19]: As OTL, though butterflies are acting, more details on the eventual (needed) Brittania update
[20]: Antwerp, Texel and Harlingen
[21]: Ibrahimites that served as mercenaries, with the tradition being build up...now? They're like the french emigrés but with a more mercenary stand, they'll be pretty important in Brittania, mind you
[22]: Maidstone, England
[23]: The Southern Bight of the North Sea
[24]: Sevenoaks, England
[25]: Folkstone, England
[26]: The Blekinge Islands, an archipelago near OTL swedish city of Karlskrona
[27]: The Isle of Wight
[28]: The same from OTL, and he'll be an interesting character for the next time we go to Bakhyia
 
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Mædestein
This is more telling the strait name, using both old saxon english ae(who come from greek-latin to begin with) and traditional german stein(ie rock and castle), show Anglo-Saxons still are a important ethno cultural group and leaked into language.

About Saxony, that is worthy his own update, even a short one, to not keep us waiting to so much buddy

Amazing chapter, the Lowlander muslim are trully the natural child of the lowlands both in land and sea, and having muslim lowlander helping a british king in england feels like a very early glorious revolution . Nice one buddy
 
Its a good update but there is one small thing that bothers me:
"In the context of the Shi'a belief in spiritual leadership or Imamate, Zaydis believe that the leader of the Ummah or Muslim community must be Fatimids: descendants of Muhammad through his only surviving daughter Fatimah, whose sons were Hasan ibn ʻAlī and Husayn ibn ʻAlī. " Are the two Imams of Bakhyia Fatimids? If not, they could still be Imams to a khawarij community though: "The Khawarij opposed arbitration as a means to choose a new ruler on the grounds that "judgement belongs to God alone". They considered arbitration a means for people to make decisions[2] while the victor in a battle was determined by God.[2] They believed that any Muslim—even one who was not a Quraysh or even an Arab—could be the Imam, the leader of the community, if he was morally irreproachable. If the leader sinned, it was the duty of Muslims to oppose and depose him."
Apart from this, the fact that the Imamate is an elected monarchy but with a strong shura makes sence for Zaydi theology: "Unlike the Twelver and Isma'ili Shia, Zaydis do not believe in the infallibility of Imāms[5][13][14] and do not believe that the Imāmate must pass from father to son but believe it can be held by any descendant of Hasan ibn ʻAlī or Husayn ibn ʻAlī. " You got the zaydis right in that.
For example here is how zaydis started in Yemem "The imams based their legitimacy on descent from the Islamic prophet Muhammad, mostly via al-Qasim ar-Rassi (d. 860). After him, the medieval imams are sometimes known as Rassids. The first of the ruling line, his grandson al-Hadi ila'l-Haqq Yahya, was born in Medina. His fame as an intellectual as well as a leader of note, led to his invitation to Yemen. He was summoned to govern the highland tribes in 893 and again in 896–97. Al-Hadi introduced a multiude of policies and practices that evolved into the particular Yemenite Zaidiyyah brand. The efforts of al-Hadi eventually became the basic guidelines for the religious as well as political characteristics of Yemeni Zaydism. Al-Hadi, however, was not able to consolidate his rule in all of Yemen. He could not even create an enduring state in the highlands, due to the strong localism persisting in the region. There were revolts as well as segments of the population that did not accept his and his successors' pretensions to religio-political rule.[2]
Although he did not succeed in establishing any permanent administrative infrastructure, al-Hadi's descendants, and other Alid clans who arrived in his company, became the local aristocracy of the northern highlands.[3] It is from among them that the imams of Yemen were selected for the next one thousand years. The imams were usually chosen from the offspring of al-Qasim ar-Rassi and more specifically of al-Hadi, but on at least eight occasions they were picked from other lines descending from Muhammad's grandsons Hasan and Husain.[4]"
 
Are the two Imams of Bakhyia Fatimids?
Talib is indeed, he is descendant from al-Abbās ibn Ali, by his only surviving son Fadl (and the family line continues), Arind just used his popularity to marry his way into the family, so he is, technically, a fatimid. The feedback is always useful, so thanks.

This is more telling the strait name, using both old saxon english ae(who come from greek-latin to begin with) and traditional german stein(ie rock and castle), show Anglo-Saxons still are a important ethno cultural group and leaked into language.

About Saxony, that is worthy his own update, even a short one, to not keep us waiting to so much buddy

Amazing chapter, the Lowlander muslim are trully the natural child of the lowlands both in land and sea, and having muslim lowlander helping a british king in england feels like a very early glorious revolution . Nice one buddy
Yeah, i think a little chapter about Saxony wouldn't hurt too, but i'll work out two chapters (Wends and Saxony) at the same time for time-consumption motives. Good you saw the more germanic presence heh, but the reasons are pretty bigger than the anglo-saxons maintaining the grip, spoilers huh?

Oh, about that Glorious Revolution stuff, the mercenaries are still in Brittania, mind you and mind Mercia.
 
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