Nice. Would there be a new map anytime soon of the Islamic world so we can visualised the extent of it all so far following these updates?
PD: I thing that once French make a comeback the name Faransa will change once again. Faranca is how France is pronounce in arabic, but i made google translate say Francia (the original latin name) with french pronunciation and it kinda sounded like a mix of France with Faransa. I mean, Iran didnt change it's name after the "two centuries of silence" and once they got back of thier feet they tried to revert some changes. Well some say that the way to say Iran in middle persian was "Eran" (I have hear some farsi speakers say it like that sometimes) and it was arabic influence that changed it to Iran. But Iran was closer to the original area of arabic influence and it did get a small migration of arabs in many parts of the country. France is way out of the way an has right nos more berbers than arabs.Arabic influence
The Arab conquest of Iran lasted for two centuries, from the 7th to the 9th CE. Arabic gradually replaced Middle Persian as an official language and Arabic became the language of the Persian intellectuals during Golden Age of Islam. During this period, many Arabic words were imported into the Persian language, and a number of Persian words found their way into Arabic. Persian words of Arabic origin especially include Islamic terms. Arabic has had an extensive influence on the Persian lexicon, but it has not greatly affected the structure of the language. Although a considerable portion of the lexicon is derived from Arabic roots, including some of the Arabic plural patterns, the morphological process used to obtain these lexical elements has not been imported into Persian and is not productive in the language.
These Arabic words have been imported and lexicalized in Persian. So, for instance, the Arabic plural form for ketāb (كتاب) ["book"] is kotob (كتب) obtained by the root derivation system. In Persian, the plural for the lexical word ketâb is obtained by simply adding the Persian plural morpheme hā: ketāb+hā → ketābhā (كتابها). Also, any new Persian words can only be pluralized by the addition of this plural morpheme since the Arabic root system is not a productive process in Persian. In addition, since the plurals formed by the Arabic morphological system constitute only a small portion of the Persian vocabulary (about 5% in the Shiraz corpus), it is not necessary to include them in the morphology; they are instead listed in the dictionary as irregular forms.
In fact, among Iranians there have been sporadic efforts as far back as the Safavid Empire to revive Persian and diminish the use of Arabic loanwords in their language. Both Pahlavi Shahs supported such efforts in the 20th century by creating the academy of Persian Language and Literature. In 1934, Reza Shah ordered to rebuild tomb of Ferdowsi, who is regarded as the savior of Persian language, and set up a ceremony in Mashhad, celebrating a thousand years of Persian literature since the time of Ferdowsi, titled Ferdowsi Millenary Celebration (Persian: جشن هزاره فردوسی).
Academy of Persian language and literature after the Iranian revolution continued its striving to protect the integrity of the Persian language. However, the attention of the academy has been turned towards the persistent infiltration of Persian, like many other languages, with English words, as a result of the globalization process. Since the 1980s, the academy constantly campaigns for the use of the Persian equivalents of these new English loanwords. It also has the task of linguistically deriving such words from existing Persian roots if no such equivalents exist, and actively promoting the adoption of these new coinages instead of their English equivalents in the daily lives of the Persian-speaking people in Iran, Afghanistan and Tajikistan.
Back to Francia? France?(how is pronounced in french?) Frank or what?PD: I thing that once French make a comeback the name Faransa will change once again. Faranca is how France is pronounce in arabic, but i made google translate say Francia (the original latin name) with french pronunciation and it kinda sounded like a mix of France with Faransa.
Go to google translate, put it in french (occitan would be better but Google doesn't have it) write France, Francia and Faransa, click on the sound button and hear how it sounds.Back to Francia? France?(how is pronounced in french?) Frank or what?
I actually found Azure searching for berber names, so it might be an local name of sorts, and AFAIK the berbers retained the majority of their old names after conversion to Islam. The regnal name thing in islamic culture usually is the "al-????????" so you just might be confused because i didn't put this part of his name because i forgot (literally, might be because for me is just easier to write "Azure"), jut just to leave it clear, it was al-Tahamul (i.e "The Endurant") and the chapter will be edited accordingly.I am a little confused by the names of some muslim rulers in ttl. I searched Azure and I only could find "It is ultimately (via Old French, Latin and Arabic) from Persian لاجورد (lajvard) meaning "azure, lapis lazuli"." It doesnt seem to be an islamic name, while it could be a personal name it was common for people born under one name to change it once they achieved a position of power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regnal_name . I have a similar objection about the name of a Maltese ruler mentioned in an old post.
Yep, after all these updates putting us in the 770s we'll have an general map, though i want do an map of Eurasia i don't know if it will be possible :vNice. Would there be a new map anytime soon of the Islamic world so we can visualised the extent of it all so far following these updates?
I probably will begin to work with language stuff, as i'm already thinking in how french (and andalusian) will stay ITTL, an french abjad (arabic script) will develop, but it's worth noting that it will probably have some regional particularities, though.And I was expeculating on how arab names and words would enter french language. For example the areas of greater concentration of arab words will probably be religion, science, poetry and trade. It would be way greater then arabic loanwords and way less corrupted, being a prestige language upper classes would take the effort to pronounce them as correctly as they can and the middle and lower classes will imitate them, just compare the level of corruption of arabic loanwords in spanish to lenguages like persian and turkish. Of course, just like in persian/turkish some level of deformation is to be expected, just check the number of ways to spell Muhammad around the world https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_(name)#Transliterations . Also the french will make their own arab based script, just like the persians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_alphabet) and bosniaks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arebica), hell we even have an otl example of a latin language writted in arabic sript (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aljamiado). Woth noting that persians and bosniaks not just use the script but modified it for thier languages just like western slavs to the latin script.
Most of the arabic influence will probably come from the maghreb addind it's own influence (and changes) to the french vocabulary. Here a list of arabic names with maghrebi modifications to serv as example https://www.behindthename.com/submit/names/usage/arabic-maghrebi . And an spanish example: some arab names made into common spanish use for example Ismael and Omar, Ismail and Umar respectively. Also sometimes all the Abdul starting names get turned into Abdel. And in Persian names like Hussein turn into Hossein. I believe that tradicional arab only has three vowels (a, i, u) but languages that have the other two sometimes add them or replace an i for an e (not the sound anglos call "e" that spanish speakers would call "i") or an u for an o.
At last a wiki snipet explaining arab influence in persian:
PD: I thing that once French make a comeback the name Faransa will change once again. Faranca is how France is pronounce in arabic, but i made google translate say Francia (the original latin name) with french pronunciation and it kinda sounded like a mix of France with Faransa. I mean, Iran didnt change it's name after the "two centuries of silence" and once they got back of thier feet they tried to revert some changes. Well some say that the way to say Iran in middle persian was "Eran" (I have hear some farsi speakers say it like that sometimes) and it was arabic influence that changed it to Iran. But Iran was closer to the original area of arabic influence and it did get a small migration of arabs in many parts of the country. France is way out of the way an has right nos more berbers than arabs.
As you can see, Maximus turned into Maqsu and Arlinus (gaulish-origin btw) turned into Arlynu, though in any possible french-arab language the "qs" would turn into "x" instantly, and the "l" after the "r" probably would be cancelled because of bigger gaulish (but the arabs have their blame on that too) influence, but focusing in the arab per se, we'll just see any "us" suffix names turned into "u" and the destroying phonetics of arab challenging the names (x = qs, v = f/b, p = b, etc.), and of course some serious simplification (as you may note by Maximus being turned into Maqsu). If you want to know any specific name i can arabize it for you though, especially if it doesn't have nothing to do with what i explained will be very helpful.I also wonder how French names will be arabized?
Back to Gaulia/Celtica for Faransa maybe?About Faransa i think that the result would be some sort of compromise like Fīransa or Fīranxa though you might expect that the "Faransa" won't be the endonym of France. Other linguistic effects is the somewhat bigger celtic/gallic influence on the language, since in its development latin would lose some of the superstratum (as effects of the arab rule) and leave the "Gallo-Roman" more, well, Gallo-Roman since it was more Roman-with-gallic-influence than anything, some of the already spoiled effects of this is the major use of "x" as "t͡s" and the "ɲ" when talking words that would use "an" (hear in google translate the pronunciation of "Ismail"), "ein" or "ain" in its place, so we can say that TTL the french will be more french than OTL french , mainstream french TTL will lose the "O" since OTL it happened with Old Occitan (though it was only in pronunciation, written occitan remain with the "o"), the obvious roman effects are the still-going "e" and a lot of the names (though gaulish-origin names will be certainly popular, different from OTL), nameplaces, the "us" suffix names will remain that way TTL, since the turn from "us" to "o" will basically not happen and a lot of the medium vocabulary will be roman-related.
Basically this, heh, i think the bigger influence on arabic phonetically will be the total loss of the "o" and the addition of the "h". Script-wise we'll see some of the diphthongs and triphthongs being converged into ē and ū.So are we looking at a Occitan with heavy Gaulish and Arabic influences sounds pretty cool? I am also very interested on how Dutch will evolve?
Yep, though these will be common in the North, and the development will be somewhat different than OTL (since it developed from Old French "Jehan" and "Jehanne") and generate something like Jihan or Jhan [dʒyhaɲ] with the female form turning into something along the lines of Jihané/Jhanné [dʒyhaɲe]. It establishes another pattern, any "vowel-h-vowel" word will probably lose/change the nature of the first vowel, as Jehan -> Jihan/Jhan.Also will we still see the classic Jean names like Jean Marie and Jean Pierre ect.
Very thanks! I've been working in better my mapmaking skills because i really disliked the two first maps of the TL, so yeah, expect it to get even betterJust one more thing, @Talus I of Dixie your mapmaking skills have greatly improved.
Unlikely, but it's something possible in case of a North-South division, with the northern parts (with less latin influence) going full on embracing gaulish heritage. The only problem is that it's very unlikely, since the identity is mainly roman (and the fact that the franks are somewhat the last local memory of "their state"), so.....Back to Gaulia/Celtica for Faransa maybe?
Catholics seems to relly in the Kosmos side of the Byzantine empire..that is hella interesting in the chinese sense they needed the protections of Orthodox nowTwo questions how is the Catholic church doing? Also will we see any pagan tribes convert to Christianity? A Islamic Western Europe and a Orthodox Christian East would be a cool dynamic.
This is waay before a Great Schism and both Churches are one. Islamic threat would enforce more unity between them. With an exception of Britain, who would remain isolated and most likely adopt a weird mix of Celtic and Roman Christianity.Catholics seems to relly in the Kosmos side of the Byzantine empire..that is hella interesting in the chinese sense they needed the protections of Orthodox now
I think this is after, Nicea already happened and tension were high...This is waay before a Great Schism and both Churches are one. Islamic threat would enforce more unity between them. With an exception of Britain, who would remain isolated and most likely adopt a weird mix of Celtic and Roman Christianity.
Catholic-Orthodox split has nothing to do with Nicea. Nicea was the moment of Catholic-Arian split, but at the time of POD arianism wasn't prominent nowhere, especially not in the Eastern Roman Empire. Catholic-Orthodox split happened in 1054, when Pope and Patriarch of Constantinople excommunicated each other. Said split is very unlikely to happen ITTL, even with ongoing civil war in Byzantine Empire. Kosmos, residing in Italy automatically cripples Papal claim to supremacy - IOTL, Popes benefited from decay of any secular political power in Italy and Kosmos being there automatically annuls this event. And Frankish support also played a considerable role in Pope becoming head of Western church, and now Frankish kingdom is gone, replaced by Faransa which is anything but friendly to Pope. ITTL, most logical direction of development of the Church, is Pentarchy where Patriarch of Rome is primus inter pares. Christians would need to unite in the face of Muslim threat. Britain might be an exception, but they'd just have weird liturgy and customs, while recongizing supremacy of Pentarchy and Council.I think this is after, Nicea already happened and tension were high...
Heh, the Pope is somewhat (as @krieger said) a Primus Inter Pares since Kosmos is there to mess up with papal supremacy, though of course, there's compromises, to levy support Kosmos officially renounced and denounced iconoclasm (the root for the East-West schism) and gave some patronization (not supremacy, ok?) to the Pope, so it's kinda a mixed bag. But yeah, we'll see some pagans converting to Christianity, and my surprises are exactly about that hehe, just...look to the middle .Two questions how is the Catholic church doing? Also will we see any pagan tribes convert to Christianity? A Islamic Western Europe and a Orthodox Christian East would be a cool dynamic.
The British Islands probably will be an exception, though they still will recognize the "central authority" of Christianity, though by now they are having some serious problems about bishops, as the british rulers are enjoying lack of papal meddling to just...put whoever they want at the bisphorics.Britain might be an exception, but they'd just have weird liturgy and customs, while recongizing supremacy of Pentarchy and Council.