Muslim "Pope"

What if there was an equivalent in the Muslim world to the Roman Catholic Pope?

To clarify, how about this "Pope" is and always has been a follower of Sunni Islam, and will reside in Mecca.

When would this "Pope" come around, and how would history change because of it, and how would our modern world be different because of it?
 
There is. It's called the Caliphate. It existed from the death of Muhammad until 1924. The office was based in Damascus, then Baghdad, then Cairo, and finally Constantinople.
 

The Vulture

Banned
The Caliph used to exercise that kind of religious authority, up until the Ottoman Empire crumbled. IIRC, the last jihad declared by a Caliph was on the British during WWI.
 

Typo

Banned
I think the pope-like authority of the Caliph stopped when the Mongols killed one of them though
 
A more fragmentary but at the same time more in contact with each other muslim world I guess?
IOTL the Caliph's world was basically just the Christian world, the Ottoman Empire (and a few minors which were unquestionably their vassals like the Barbary states) and their enemy the Persians.
So...you need to stop there being one or two powerful Muslim states dominating the middle east and a more even distribution of power, this lack of a obvious political leader will give more weight to a spiritual leader- just look to christendom. When there was a Roman Emperor (a proper one. HRE and Ottomans need not apply) the religious leader wasn't such a big deal. With things fragmented though they were the unifying factor and had enourmous power.
 
To rephrase:
Give me a POD in which the Caliph has Papal-like power today, and how that affects today's world and the world of yesteryear.
 
I have an idea. After the fall of the Ottoman Empire, have a situation where the last Caliph hands over the office to either the King of Hejaz (depending on his fortunes) or the King of Egypt in the mid-1920's. In the former, somehow prevent the Saudis from taking over the whole peninsula; in the latter, somehow make the Kings of Egypt stay in power and make the idea of a politically stable Muslim world appeal to the British (which in itself shouldn't be too difficult).
Then have the country that the title falls to become a stable, capable, leading power in the Arab world and in the larger, worldwide Sunni community. He could have some pope-like pull over the Muslims that recognise his Caliphate, which should be most. I'd prefer the Hejaz situation, since it'd mean a much weaker contemporary Wahhabi movement, and probably much less Muslim fundamentalism later on down the road.
 
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I think that what you'd really need to do is separate the holder of the title "Caliph" from big secular political political power. That way he can focus on religious aspects rather than it becoming just another title for the strongest leader in the Muslim world. Perhaps, instead of taking the title of Caliph for themselves, the Ottomans set up a Caliph as a vassal in Mecca who has no real political power? Or maybe some other invader, who for whatever reason is not inclined to take the title Caliph does the same? For me, that would be the most likely way to get a pope-like figure in the Muslim world.
 
To rephrase:
Give me a POD in which the Caliph has Papal-like power today, and how that affects today's world and the world of yesteryear.

Ottomans stay out of WWI. Sultan-Caliph, who is only a constitutional figurehead, removed from the dirtiness of politics, becomes even more important as a spiritual leader than in OTL.

This is really the only way it's going to happen. The only other possibility, albeit far-fetched, would need to be post-colonial (1970s-on), and would involve an elective Caliphate, with qualified Sharia scholars entitled as candidates and electors. This would be closest to the spirit of Islam.
 
Ottomans stay out of WWI. Sultan-Caliph, who is only a constitutional figurehead, removed from the dirtiness of politics, becomes even more important as a spiritual leader than in OTL.

This is really the only way it's going to happen. The only other possibility, albeit far-fetched, would need to be post-colonial (1970s-on), and would involve an elective Caliphate, with qualified Sharia scholars entitled as candidates and electors. This would be closest to the spirit of Islam.

Modern popes (from Paul VI forwards) have rejected all temporal claims save the very limited holdings of the Vatican City. In hindsight this only benefited the public image of the Papacy.

As for election of a Caliph from Islamic scholars: would this be similar to a curial election of a pope? Islam does not have clergy in the Christian sense, so it would be inaccurate to characterize Sharia scholars as cardinals. Nevertheless, would the election process be similar?
 
I'm not sure keeping the Ottomans out of WWI altogether is necessary (although it is a fine idea) - I suspect the office of Caliph could survive losing a war if the Ottomans didn't get carved up and colonized. Is replacing Wilson enough, do you think, or were the British and French bound and determined to make a mess of things?

A spiritual-only leader of Dar al-Islam is not achievable through linear evolution, I don't think. The recent Pope's position is at least consonant with his Scriptures - there's nothing in there commanding him to be a temporal ruler and some things which could be interpreted as commands to eschew temporal power. The Quran and sharia (as I understand them; I am not a qadi), by contrast, consider and explicitly reject the separation of church and state.

A restored Sunni Caliphate seems very possible to me, but would seem to be primarily held back by a lack of candidates - the two most credible choices are the King of Saudi Arabia, who wouldn't touch the title with a 10-foot pole, and the heir to the Mogul throne, who leads a retiring and apolitical life in Delhi last I checked. Conservative Muslims in India and Pakistan do send him zakat (as a private citizen, his tax records are not public information, but he appears to recieve about 6 million USD per year, and give it away to Muslim charities without commenting on whether or not he is entitled to it). He's been invited to move to a more appropriate and respectful climate (Pakistan) and declined. Perhaps he has a more active and dynamic grandson? You could do a lot worse for a modern Caliph than someone who grew up in a democracy with freedom of religion, I think.

If you need him earlier, figure out a way to create an interregnum earlier and then "restore" the office.
 
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Valdemar II

Banned
The problem with a inheritable religeous position are that they lose respect in the modern world. The (modern) Popes gain much of the respect from the fact that they have worked themself to the top, and has been elected by a bunch of good theologians (you can say much about the Cardinales, but they can their theology), plus the fact that it's a elected position give the clergy a incentiment to stay loyal and work themself in the Church rather than splinter. A Ottoman Caliph in modern day would have some problem, in all will follow all his blunders in his youth, and the heir may not be theologian genious or even just mediocre.
 
For an earlier POD, you could somehow make the Abbasid Caliphate survive Hulegu Khan's invasion (maybe he buys him off, or Hulegu dies, or something). While it only held a rather limited amount of land, the Baghdad caliphate was still recognized as a source of authority throughout the Sunni world, much like the Pope in Europe.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
For an earlier POD, you could somehow make the Abbasid Caliphate survive Hulegu Khan's invasion (maybe he buys him off, or Hulegu dies, or something). While it only held a rather limited amount of land, the Baghdad caliphate was still recognized as a source of authority throughout the Sunni world, much like the Pope in Europe.

The problem are it would not be anything like the Pope but more like the Emperor of Japan, a man those religeous authority are only upholded by the fact that he lives in powerless isolation. The moment people get that he's a man like all others*, much of his authority will disappear.

*The moment modern media are born.
 
The problem are it would not be anything like the Pope but more like the Emperor of Japan, a man those religeous authority are only upholded by the fact that he lives in powerless isolation. The moment people get that he's a man like all others*, much of his authority will disappear.

*The moment modern media are born.

Not sure-early medieval Islamic political theory basically acknowleged that, although the Caliph was a source of authority, actual power was held by various secular rulers. And "modern media" has not destroyed the authority of the Agha Khan, who is recognized as heriditary Imam by the world's several million Ismaili Shias*.

*A breakaway sect, distinct from Twelver Shia, who make up the overwhelming majority of the Shia population whose line of Imams died out in the medieval era.
 
This is really the only way it's going to happen. The only other possibility, albeit far-fetched, would need to be post-colonial (1970s-on), and would involve an elective Caliphate, with qualified Sharia scholars entitled as candidates and electors. This would be closest to the spirit of Islam.


Hmmm, that is quite an interesting scenario. Why is it so implausible?
 
Hmmm, that is quite an interesting scenario. Why is it so implausible?

Because such a Caliph would control a majority of the world's oil supply, so the odds of the developed Christian nations abiding by election results they didn't like would be basically nil.

I know he's supposed to be a spiritual leader only in this scenario. But a man who can mobilize the people of Arabia, Iraq and the smaller Gulf states - and maybe get Iran to fall in line - is pretty dangerous, and you have to figure the first restored Caliph would be a very charismatic and energetic fellow...
 
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