Muslim Europe, Christian Middle East Mk. III

MerryPrankster said:
G.Bone made a map for Mark II. Perhaps I can persuade him to make a map for Mk. III.
Think I’ll give it a shot…
(put in a few unmentioned countries that I felt would probably be floating around somewhere in TTL)

zzzCMEMEIII.PNG
 
Hermanubis,

Magnificent! Magnificent I say!

Good all on the various Western European states that would still exist if the Franks expended their energies elsewhere. I might have to modify the TL considerably.

The map also gives me an idea for how to ultimately end the Franks. The "Emir of the Forests" combines the Saxons and Bavarians (and lots of mercenaries from Denmark and Scandistan) to wage jihad against the Franks. The Franks are going through one of their divided-inheritance periods and by the time someone thinks of instituting primogeniture to keep them unified, the jihadis have already amputated a big hunk of the empire.
 
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MerryPrankster said:
Hermanubis,

Magnificent! Magnificent I say!

Good all on the various Western European states that would still exist if the Franks expended their energies elsewhere. I might have to modify the TL considerably.

The map also gives me an idea for how to ultimately end the Franks. The "Emir of the Forests" combines the Saxons and Bavarians (and lots of mercenaries from Denmark and Scandistan) to wage jihad against the Franks. The Franks are going through one of their divided-inheritance periods and by the time someone thinks of instituting primogeniture to keep them unified, the jihadis have already amputated a big hunk of the empire.

Is all of Europe going to be Muslim or just up to the borders of OTL's France?
 
MerryPrankster said:
No takers? Well, here is the future of TTL as I have envisoned it.

1. The Britannic dynasty will ultimately become High Kings of Ireland and Dal Riada (the Irish settlements in western Scotland) as well. They and the Franks will destroy the southernmost Saxon kingdoms between them leaving Northumbia and a couple of states in the north. Northumbria will be conquered by Muslim Danes and the Franks will be force to withdraw from the south of England due to troubles at home--ultimately, there will be a Celtic reconquest that drives Islamic power from Britain and assimilates the devastated Saxons.

2. Islam will spread into Scandinavia. Many Norse in present-day Russia will convert to Islam, while the Caliphate might establish something very much like the Varangian Guard (Viking Mamelukes?). Norse warriors returning from the south might use the new faith as a pretext to wreak havoc among their pagan brethren, and as a state-building tool. We'll see Islamic equivalents of St. Olaf and Harald Fairhair.

3. Germany will be a contested area between the Franks and Muslim powers like the Caliphate, Bulgars, and Magyars. Ultimately it will be resolved by the appearance of the Emir of the Forests, who will drive the Christian Franks out of Germania and establish a powerful Islamic state there. It is this state that will ultimately destroy the Frankish Empire, and will possibly be the nucleus of the third Schism, whose teachings will bear a distinctive Catholic stamp.

4. Not sure what will happen to Spain. I think Christianized and semi-Christianized Berbers might invade and conquer at least part of it, as the Visigoth kingdom was rather weak.

5. Considering most of the Turkic peoples in TTL will be Nestorian Christian, might we see a Nestorian Golden Horde (or similar group, since the GH itself is probably going to be butterflied away) dominating Russia?

For Russia converting, you'd have to change the tenets of Islam to appeal to a people that are beer and pork eaters, no? If not, you might as well make a "Catholic" Russia with its own pope.
 
TyrannusZero said:
For Russia converting, you'd have to change the tenets of Islam to appeal to a people that are beer and pork eaters, no? If not, you might as well make a "Catholic" Russia with its own pope.

Well, one could make the claim that Mohammed only prohibited date wine, or for that matter, only prohibited drinking to excess (some Muslims teach this).

There's a good chance that interior Russia will be Nestorian and Turko-Mongol, while the coasts and Volga/Danube river systems will be settled by Muslim Norse and Slavs.
 
MerryPrankster said:
Well, one could make the claim that Mohammed only prohibited date wine, or for that matter, only prohibited drinking to excess (some Muslims teach this).

There's a good chance that interior Russia will be Nestorian and Turko-Mongol, while the coasts and Volga/Danube river systems will be settled by Muslim Norse and Slavs.

Mind if I make a religious map of the area for our modern year? (I may keep the Gallo-Roman south in the Christian camp though)
 
Condottiero said:
What about the hispano-romans in Spain get rid of the Visigoth Kings with help of the berbers?

Sure.

Could you describe what went on in Spain re: the Visigoths and the Hispano-Romans? I know that the Visigoths' Arianism wasn't helpful, but I don't know much else.
 
MerryPrankster said:
Sure.

Could you describe what went on in Spain re: the Visigoths and the Hispano-Romans? I know that the Visigoths' Arianism wasn't helpful, but I don't know much else.

Basically, what happened on OTL was that it went to a religious civil war. One Visigothic noble became Catholic and it led to war with the Arian upper classes. It ended with the Arian defeat and led to the very Catholic character of Spain today.
 
The Punic Roman Empire is cool, I imagine such a state could become very powerful as in our timeline North Africa was the breadbasket of the Western Empire.
 
TyrannusZero said:
Does Venice stay Christian?
Christian countries currently should be:

Roman Empire (Sicilian)
Roman Empire (Punic)
Kingdom of Egypt
Visgothic Kingdom
Frankish Kingdom (including Aquitaine and Burgundy)
Venice
Armenia (?)
Chakanid Sultanate
Ertugrulid Sultanate
Maronite Kingdom
Vasconia
Crete (if Independent)
North-Umbria
And the Celts
 
TyrannusZero said:
Basically, what happened on OTL was that it went to a religious civil war. One Visigothic noble became Catholic and it led to war with the Arian upper classes. It ended with the Arian defeat and led to the very Catholic character of Spain today.
Always thought that the centuries long Crusade against the Islamic Moors lead to the Catholic character of Spain today…
 
TyrannusZero said:
Does Venice stay Christian?

Venice is a Christian state even though it is in thrall to the Muslim Magyar Caliphate.

Armenia is a Christian state too--they and Persia were spared the Islamic onslaught that went into Europe instead.
 
Hermanubis said:
Always thought that the centuries long Crusade against the Islamic Moors lead to the Catholic character of Spain today…

That was the Reconquista. The Catholic character of Iberia/Hispania came after the defeat of the Arians in the Visigothic Civil War of the 600s. After this the Visigothic rulers with support of the Hispano-Romans became very Catholic almost to the point that they were ashamed of the fact they were Arian. This character led to the Reconquista in a sense and still affects the Spanish mindset today.
 
Hermanubis said:
Christian countries currently should be:

Roman Empire (Sicilian)
Roman Empire (Punic)
Kingdom of Egypt
Visgothic Kingdom
Frankish Kingdom (including Aquitaine and Burgundy)
Venice
Armenia (?)
Chakanid Sultanate
Ertugrulid Sultanate
Maronite Kingdom
Vasconia
Crete (if Independent)
North-Umbria
And the Celts

I'm making a modern day map, if this timeline goes into 2006. Its looking quite good.
 
TyrannusZero said:
Basically, what happened on OTL was that it went to a religious civil war. One Visigothic noble became Catholic and it led to war with the Arian upper classes. It ended with the Arian defeat and led to the very Catholic character of Spain today.
It was quite dramatic as the noble that rebelled was Hermenegild, the son of King Leovigild, that died in the process. The next king converted to catholicism.

However there were still serious tensions between the hispano-romans and the visigoths and the hispano-romans and the jews. In fact when muslims arrived huge portions of the hispano-romans supported them and most of the jews thinking that it was a mere change in the rulers to a better situation.

In my opinion berbers, in your TL berbers could be welcomed as liberators, in case they were mainly chrisitanized they could probably be absorbed leading to a mixed society. Visigoths would be pushed north and probably be confined in the less latinized regions of the north and the north west.
 
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