Muslim China? Challenge accepted!

[Nivek]

You know, if Japan does stay buddhist here (which I am not entirely convinced of happening admittingly), they may have one of their main cultural perspectives be that they are the last Buddhists in the world with how they would be so isolated from other buddhists.


Also the cultural divergences from OTL will be something as with the completely different religious tradition from the mainland it may make Japan less sinophillic that OTL with the religious divergences (which is why I personally find it unlikely for Japan to not eventually become Shiite, Japan generally followed China culturally and viewed it as the center of civilization up until the 19th century if I remember correctly and it's early enough in Japan's history that I could easily see the Yamato dynasty or another dynasty that based on the Shiite population from misionaries from China to base their legitimacy on something completely different.)

Japan would be Something Interesting depending how unfold(even someone mentioned going Sunni just to diverge from China) yeah whatever that archipelago ended up, will be significant for the tl, NOT much unlike MECA(Middle East and Central Asia) but Important

 

[inawarminister]

Japan would be Something Interesting depending how unfold(even someone mentioned going Sunni just to diverge from China) yeah whatever that archipelago ended up, will be significant for the tl, NOT much unlike MECA(Middle East and Central Asia) but Important

Yeah, here's a short points on Japan-China relationship pre-Meiji.

1. Pure Sinophilia in the Asuka and early Heian Era, with T'ang Dynasty culture and artefacts and religion adopted wholesale, including Buddhism, Kanji, the Imperial Court, and the Samurai "aristocratic gentlemen of war". However, Japan doesn't exactly put themselves as Chinese tributary state and see themselves as Equal to the "Son of Heaven in the land where the sun sets." This period ended when the late T'ang did the Great Anti-Buddhist Persecution in 845CE, alienating Japanese elites which went heavily into Buddhism already.
2. Semi-Isolation, with Heian Japan under the Fujiwara regents focusing East, expanding against the Ainu-held Eastern Japan, with the warrior elites adopting Emishi horse archery, and with internal struggles. Ended in the Muromachi period with the first Minamoto Bakufu. But China was divided into two with Northern Liao/Jin dynasties and Southern Song at this time.
3. Hostility, with the Yuan dynasty invasions of Japan, then as Japan went into anarchy at the late 14th century, increasing amount of Woku pirates raiding Chinese coast. Climaxed with the Nobunaga and Hideyoshi's invasions of Korea, actually targeting China. (Well, Nobunaga wanted to conquer China AND India.)
4. Sakoku, total Isolation.

In the second and third phases, there were lots of Chinese monks (or Japanese monks coming to China) spreading their sects in Japan, such as Pure Land Buddhism in the 10th century:

At a later date, the Pure Land teachings spread to Japan and slowly grew in prominence. Genshin (942–1017) caused Fujiwara no Michinaga (966-1028) to accept the Pure Land teachings. Hōnen (1133–1212) established Pure Land Buddhism as an independent sect in Japan known as Jōdo-shū. Today Pure Land is an important form of Buddhism in Japan, China, Korea, and Vietnam. Pure Land schools make up almost 40 percent of Japanese Buddhism practitioners with the most temples, second to Chan schools. These schools were influenced by the thought that humans could no longer understand the dharma by themselves.

and Zen Buddhism in the 13th century:

Zen was not introduced as a separate school until the 12th century, when Myōan Eisai traveled to China and returned to establish a Linji lineage, which eventually perished. Decades later, Nanpo Shōmyō (南浦紹明) (1235–1308) also studied Linji teachings in China before founding the Japanese Otokan lineage, the most influential and only surviving lineage of Rinzai in Japan. In 1215, Dōgen, a younger contemporary of Eisai's, journeyed to China himself, where he became a disciple of the Caodong master Tiantong Rujing. After his return, Dōgen established the Sōtō school, the Japanese branch of Caodong.

In this timeline, Pure Land monks are going to be heading full-front into an increasingly Islamised Chinese society, and God knows what kind of missionaries and cultic preachers are going to come out of the Middle Kingdom.
Then again, there are loads of examples of dissident sects Islamising a far-off country only for the descendants to return to orthodox Sunni Islam (or Shi'a), the latest example of which is the African-American Nation of Islam, so...

 

[Nivek]

1. Pure Sinophilia in the Asuka and early Heian Era, with T'ang Dynasty culture and artefacts and religion adopted wholesale, including Buddhism, Kanji, the Imperial Court, and the Samurai "aristocratic gentlemen of war". However, Japan doesn't exactly put themselves as Chinese tributary state and see themselves as Equal to the "Son of Heaven in the land where the sun sets." This period ended when the late T'ang did the Great Anti-Buddhist Persecution in 845CE, alienating Japanese elites which went heavily into Buddhism already

This is the most important fact as this is the timeframe the Shia in Iran are too, depending how much would took, they could get well into late 1000 in their full conversition, the pure land missionaries might be butterfly away or be Buddhist escaping of conversion... or could be full fledge Imman going into pagan lands...that could be very interesting

Again before talking the rest of Asia we need to know how much would took the Islamization of China..that might took a while

 

[EmperorBuaya]

This is very interesting TL yet challenging. Not every day you get to see somebody attempting to do Muslim Chinas. I also made TL with similar premises except it's China ruled by the Sinotic-Mongolian Muslims, basically Imperial Chinese version of Mughal Empire.

Anyhow, while it's interesting, it'll be difficult to make Orthodox Shiite China without making concessions or compromises to Chinese subjects.

 

[kasumigenx]

The Philippines was under Sumatran/Javanese influence prior to Majapahit being a thing, I see it going Muslim via Aceh/Pasai even sooner, A Mongolian Muslim Empire that has China would further accelerate this.

 

[Nivek]

The Philippines was under Sumatran/Javanese influence prior to Majapahit being a thing, I see it going Muslim via Aceh/Pasai even sooner, A Mongolian Muslim Empire that has China would further accelerate this.

With the POD itself the mongols are butterfly away. STILL China is not formal muslim yet we could see east asia being partitioned even more in shia and sunni lines like in Middle East and Central Asia regions

 

[inawarminister]

With the POD itself the mongols are butterfly away. STILL China is not formal muslim yet we could see east asia being partitioned even more in shia and sunni lines like in Middle East and Central Asia regions

Indeed. OTL Twelver Shi'ism is stereotyped as Iranian religion, so TTL Imperial Shi'ism might be stereotyped as Han religion while those against them choose other sects/cults as applicable (like OTL Pashtuns (?) Turkmens and, of course, the Ottomans themselves. Though the last is mostly just a reaction against Shiite ghulaat movements in town, with a commiserate move towards orthodox Sunnism)

The Philippines was under Sumatran/Javanese influence prior to Majapahit being a thing, I see it going Muslim via Aceh/Pasai even sooner, A Mongolian Muslim Empire that has China would further accelerate this.

Java itself got a boost in Islamisation due to Hui settlers from the Ming trade fleet, so yeah I expect the "Filipinos" (what's the native name anyway? I used to use Northeastern Islands (Nusa Timur Laut) but that is fiddly when the main regional power is in mainland China) to get islamised from two directions. Sunni Malays and Shiite Imperials.

 

[kasumigenx]

Java itself got a boost in Islamisation due to Hui settlers from the Ming trade fleet, so yeah I expect the "Filipinos" (what's the native name anyway? I used to use Northeastern Islands (Nusa Timur Laut) but that is fiddly when the main regional power is in mainland China) to get islamised from two directions. Sunni Malays and Shiite Imperials.

Prior to heavy Javanese influence in the North, the Sumatran/Malay influence was stronger since the Philippines have Sumatran/Malay place names in them, so there would be indeed a two-way direction of conversion to Islam.

 

[Alexander the Average]

Indeed. OTL Twelver Shi'ism is stereotyped as Iranian religion, so TTL Imperial Shi'ism might be stereotyped as Han religion while those against them choose other sects/cults as applicable (like OTL Pashtuns (?) Turkmens and, of course, the Ottomans themselves. Though the last is mostly just a reaction against Shiite ghulaat movements in town, with a commiserate move towards orthodox Sunnism)

Java itself got a boost in Islamisation due to Hui settlers from the Ming trade fleet, so yeah I expect the "Filipinos" (what's the native name anyway? I used to use Northeastern Islands (Nusa Timur Laut) but that is fiddly when the main regional power is in mainland China) to get islamised from two directions. Sunni Malays and Shiite Imperials.

Prior to heavy Javanese influence in the North, the Sumatran/Malay influence was stronger since the Philippines have Sumatran/Malay place names in them, so there would be indeed a two-way direction of conversion to Islam.

I wonder if some sort of new branch of Islam might emerge there as a result of Sunni/Shia and native syncretism?

 

[kasumigenx]

I wonder if some sort of new branch of Islam might emerge there as a result of Sunni/Shia and native syncretism?

I think they would go Sunni and follow the Sumatrans.

 

[yboxman]

This is very interesting TL yet challenging. Not every day you get to see somebody attempting to do Muslim Chinas. I also made TL with similar premises except it's China ruled by the Sinotic-Mongolian Muslims, basically Imperial Chinese version of Mughal Empire.

Anyhow, while it's interesting, it'll be difficult to make Orthodox Shiite China without making concessions or compromises to Chinese subjects.

"Orthodox" twelver Shia is basically a relatively modern (16th century) development. Until the Safavids came to power in Persia, made Twelver SHiism the state religion, and persecuted Persians who tried to remain Sunnia, Twelver Shiism was no more than another hetrodox underground belief followed by fringe groups and the disenfranchised. To be sure, Safavid success had somewhat to do with the prevalence of twelver (and Ismaili) adherents in Persia, but they were still a disorganized minority, before the Safavids took Persia by the sword, not the word.

Given the early POD, you can assume that the only thing TTLs Xian-centric Shia really share with OTL twelvers (or Ismaili. Or Zaidi) is a reverence to the line of Ali. The concept of an occulted Mahdi, for one thing, will be absent so long as the line of Ali persists in Xian. To be sure, other Alides in Persia and elsewhere may insist that the TRUE line of succession passed through a different Imam and develop an occultation based escathalogy.

I wonder if some sort of new branch of Islam might emerge there as a result of Sunni/Shia and native syncretism?

Basically, as far as Java goes, my assumption is that their initial exposure will be to (mostly) Sunni Islam from Arabia proper, with some Shia admixture from Fars (which will remain officially Sunni at least until the 11-12th century, but with a large SHia underground) , but that given the distance from Arabia, the eventual Shization of TTLs Persia under the *Saminids et al, the trade advantages local Rajas will derive from Yan China by adopting Shiism over Suni, and the low attachement of local muslim converts to the whole Middle-East centric SHia-Sunni dispute, Java will eventually tend towards Shiism. A Yuan invasion analog, or a Ming treasure fleet analog, may seek to push them in the "right" direction, possibly with a backlash if it fails. Ditto for Sumatra.

For various reasons, it's not even going to be a contest in the Philipines.


OK, enough naval gazing until I burp out an update. What's holding me up is basically trying to portray the scene where the 3rd Imam is recieved by Wu Zeitan (with or without the Sassanid heir present...) realistically, but also in an interesting way. Ideally, I would like to have Wu Zeitan portrayed sympathetically by the Shia chronicles, so that Shia Islam (and China) have a positive precedent for female involvement in politics/religion. But this may not be realistic, and Wu Zeitan is such a maligned/controversial figure in Chinese histiriography that it's hard for me to determine how she would interact with the Shia Imam, or whether he would even be on her radar.

Any suggestions?

 

[Nivek]

Any suggestions?

did we know how the chinese dealed with sassanid? that could be an example.

 

[yboxman]

did we know how the chinese dealed with sassanid? that could be an example.

Kept them at court, had Sogdians crown exile as king during brief occupation of Transoxonia, intermarried them with Tang princesses etc, and gradually absorbed them into noble lineages. Situation not quite equivialent since:
1. Shia are evangelical
2. Shia are theoretically at odds with Sassanians. Basically Imam is travelling to Xian when contact is re-established between Sogdia and Tang, after 15 year TIbetean occupation of Kashgar is pushed back by China. He, his opponents, Manichean adherents and the long established Sassanians will all be currying favor. So this is a far more complex equation.
3. More to the point this isn;t the Tang. This is Zhou/Wu Zeitan. She deviated from dynastic norms in many ways, including trying to form a cult of personality around herself and revising civil service protocol.

but that isn't even the main question. What interests me, is not what Wu Zeitan actually does, but how she will be portrayed by posterity.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

I would call this statistical ineveitability rather than a miracle. Consider the difficulties suffered by the Mongols when they came to aid the Nivek against the Ainu in Sakhlain. Or the casulties suffered by the Japanese missions to the Tan'g (roughly a third didn't return). Naval technology at the time made invasion across the sea of Japan a highly attritional affair. While the Kamikaze might have been an outlier, over time, the Mongol forces would not have been able to maintain a presence against determined resistance. To eitherbuild up a sufficiently powerful bridgehead,force the Japanese into a decisive engagement on their terms, or maintain long term control over the country or parts thereof, powerful local allies would be needed....

You think? But IIRC, for the most part, when samurai forces encountered the Mongols they tended to suffer. Rather badly (kind of inevitable when a warrior tradition focused on single combat goes up against guys with black powder).

I see what you're saying about naval tech, but if the Mongols had got a decent bridgehead...I don't see the Japanese being able to stave off conquest.

 

[Nivek]

but how she will be portrayed by posterity.

As the format always Spoil, Maybe the Shia or Female Equivalent of Abu Talib, the one give the Muslim protection even if she never become a muslim. OF COURSE Traditionalist chinese will hate and curse her more because that

evangelical

The proper term would be proselytising

 

[danteheadman]

Here's a thought: how will Imperial Shiism (and I do like that term) deal with the Hajj? I don't think that China would be super pleased with a religious requirement to leave China and travel to the opposite end of the known world. That would diminish China's status as the "Middle Kingdom" / center of the universe.

 

[Nivek]

Here's a thought: how will Imperial Shiism (and I do like that term) deal with the Hajj? I don't think that China would be super pleased with a religious requirement to leave China and travel to the opposite end of the known world. That would diminish China's status as the "Middle Kingdom" / center of the universe.

Hajj is one of the Five Pillars, you can't deal with it, even Shia during the most fierce rivalry do the hajj normally, trying to change it is the golden bullet the Sunni would need to formally declare the Shia as Kafirs now. If anything going to Hajj could change that mental barrier, people talking about it and telling about muslim from all the world on it...

 

[danteheadman]

Hajj is one of the Five Pillars, you can't deal with it, even Shia during the most fierce rivalry do the hajj normally, trying to change it is the golden bullet the Sunni would need to formally declare the Shia as Kafirs now. If anything going to Hajj could change that mental barrier, people talking about it and telling about muslim from all the world on it...

If Imperial Shiism won't abandon the Hajj then we're going to see a mild Sinification of the rest of the Arab world regardless of Sunni feelings towards them. Thousands or hundreds of thousands of Chinese and Sinified Shiites travelling to the Arabian Peninsula on a regular basis will certainly impact the local culture.

 

[TimTurner]

interesting thread.

 

[Nivek]

If Imperial Shiism won't abandon the Hajj then we're going to see a mild Sinification of the rest of the Arab world regardless of Sunni feelings towards them. Thousands or hundreds of thousands of Chinese and Sinified Shiites travelling to the Arabian Peninsula on a regular basis will certainly impact the local culture.

Even the OP realize that could be a great posibility too

e Haj alone would ensure constant traffic and exposure of China with Central Asia and the Middle East. It is also a uber China-Wank: because China would be the largest and most powerful political entity within the Dar-el Islam by far and would hence be able to exercise significant leadership, perhaps even sinification, in a cultural-political zone streatching all the way to the Atlantic.

And Yeah The Hajj would be a two way street of influences for both, so that might be interesting to see when happens