Munich Shuffle: 1938-1942

[Dan]

Do we open a book on who will lead the Alt-Valkyrie?

I'm thinking it might be a "true believer" rather than the military.
Kaltenbrunner for example.
Kaltenbrunner and Skorzeny could be an interesting mix.

 

[Garrison]

Do we open a book on who will lead the Alt-Valkyrie?

I'm thinking it might be a "true believer" rather than the military.
Kaltenbrunner for example.
Kaltenbrunner and Skorzeny could be an interesting mix.

Well a true believer could get the blame anyway...

 

[diestormlie]

One area where rationality and efficiency were utterly ignored was in the prosecution of the Holocaust. Not only was the mass murder being carried out at Auschwitz and other places an atrocity, but it was also an absurdity. A nation where the propaganda spoke of ‘total war’ had constructed vast a vast mechanized system of murder that consumed huge amounts of material resources and vitally needed transportation. Trains that might have might have moved coal or iron, or supplies for the Ostheer, were instead carrying helpless men women and children to a brutal death. Many of those people so gleefully murdered by the Nazi state might have laboured in German factories instead, though given the treatment of slave labour in German industry this would just have been a slow death for most of the Jewish population selected for work rather than immediate murder.

The Holocaust is actually perfectly rational... If you're a Nazi (and thus, utterly bugnuts.) Because, see, to the Nazi mind, the Holocaust isn't this... Seperate thing done alongisde the War. It is the War. The Second World War, from the Nazi perspective, is a war against Jewry. And so the massacre of Jewish people isn't a fun side-gig; it's actively the point of the wor.

 

[cortz#9]

The Holocaust is actually perfectly rational... If you're a Nazi (and thus, utterly bugnuts.) Because, see, to the Nazi mind, the Holocaust isn't this... Seperate thing done alongisde the War. It is the War. The Second World War, from the Nazi perspective, is a war against Jewry. And so the massacre of Jewish people isn't a fun side-gig; it's actively the point of the wor.

I couldn't give this a like of course but I pretty much agree, for Hitler and Himmler and a lot of others it was indeed the war.

 

[Narrowback57]

The insanity of the Nazi racial theories had guys like Odilio Globocnik in the pure Aryan SS,clubfooted Goebbels preaching about Eugenics, later on the need for soldiers had Himmler forming SS units from Yugoslavian Muslims, stories of Goering stating that he decided who was a Jew. That they were able to turn these lunatic ideas into the Holocaust is amazing.

 

[Tannenberg]

With no armistice and no Allied presence, Italy likely ends up either occupied and made a Republic without plebiscite or falling to Communism because of a stronger Wehrmacht presence and a worse overall situation partisans have become more radicalized.

 

[Dan]

With no armistice and no Allied presence, Italy likely ends up either occupied and made a Republic without plebiscite or falling to Communism because of a stronger Wehrmacht presence and a worse overall situation partisans have become more radicalized.

I think falling to Titoist style Communism sounds likely

 

[Garrison]

With no armistice and no Allied presence, Italy likely ends up either occupied and made a Republic without plebiscite or falling to Communism because of a stronger Wehrmacht presence and a worse overall situation partisans have become more radicalized.

I think falling to Titoist style Communism sounds likely

Post war Europe will be different, and I do have plan for Italy and elsewhere, much of which will spring from the Allies making a landing in France in 1943 rather than 44.

 

[Look More Closely Later]

Post war Europe will be different, and I do have plan for Italy and elsewhere, much of which will spring from the Allies making a landing in France in 1943 rather than 44.

From this site ( https://mulberryharbour.info/ ) it looks to me like they were still testing the Mulberry Harbours in May 1943, up in Scotland (the letter noting the arrival of the 'military working party' gives a date of 14th May, 1943.)
So no Mulberry Harbours for a mid-1943 French landing...

 

[Garrison]

From this site ( https://mulberryharbour.info/ ) it looks to me like they were still testing the Mulberry Harbours in May 1943, up in Scotland (the letter noting the arrival of the 'military working party' gives a date of 14th May, 1943.)
So no Mulberry Harbours for a mid-1943 French landing...

Well I've decided that since they know they will be landing much sooner they've focused on having one ready in time for the day.

 

[Look More Closely Later]

Well I've decided that since they know they will be landing much sooner they've focused on having one ready in time for the day.

If you rush stuff without completing testing you get a good chance of ending up with something like the Covenanter tank...
This should be... 'interesting'.

Edit:
I think the Americans showed in the original timeline what you could do in terms of unloading smaller stuff, with just the breakwaters to create a calmer water zone, after they lost the Omaha mulberry.

 

[Garrison]

If you rush stuff without completing testing you get a good chance of ending up with something like the Covenanter tank...
This should be... 'interesting'.

Edit:
I think the Americans showed in the original timeline what you could do in terms of unloading smaller stuff, with just the breakwaters to create a calmer water zone, after they lost the Omaha mulberry.

Well it would be fair to say there will be quality control issues that affect the use by date. BTW D-Day was a bit of a pain because I had to go digging through weather records for a date with similar time and tides to June the 6th 1944, and at the same time I wasn't describing the day as blue skies and sunshine when it was p...ersintenly raining.

ETA: Also I had thought about the breakwater idea previously and I think I will work it in as an expedient.

 

[Look More Closely Later]

Well it would be fair to say there will be quality control issues that affect the use by date. BTW D-Day was a bit of a pain because I had to go digging through weather records for a date with similar time and tides to June the 6th 1944, and at the same time I wasn't describing the day as blue skies and sunshine when it was p...ersintenly raining.

ETA: Also I had thought about the breakwater idea previously and I think I will work it in as an expedient.

Can't put a vehicle ashore unless it's saltwater proof without a harbour, but you can lighter a lot of smaller stuff with amphibious vehicles if the water isn't too choppy.

Are the Gilbert & Marshalls campaigns of the OTL cancelled if the entire amphibious assault craft production is going to be needed for Europe for 1943?
(If so, good news for Imperial Japan's defensive perimeter, or at least it would be if things weren't going pear-shaped in Southeast Asia...)

 

[Garrison]

Can't put a vehicle ashore unless it's saltwater proof without a harbour, but you can lighter a lot of smaller stuff with amphibious vehicles if the water isn't too choppy.

Are the Gilbert & Marshalls campaigns of the OTL cancelled if the entire amphibious assault craft production is going to be needed for Europe for 1943?
(If so, good news for Imperial Japan's defensive perimeter, or at least it would be if things weren't going pear-shaped in Southeast Asia...)

The focus prior to D-Day will be the DEI as yes they have had to dial things back, but given the situation in SEA its not that much of a help to the Japanese.

 

[CB13]

What did the Germans use to land in Norway?

I assume that must have taught some lessons? Even minor ones?

 

[Garrison]

What did the Germans use to land in Norway?

I assume that must have taught some lessons? Even minor ones?

They largely used ships and aimed to disembark in ports, which proved expensive in ships even IOTL. The major thing they developed for amphibious landings after that was the Seibel Ferry and that was a dubious proposition if there swells and moderate seas.

 

[BELFAST]

They largely used ships and aimed to disembark in ports, which proved expensive in ships even IOTL. The major thing they developed for amphibious landings after that was the Seibel Ferry and that was a dubious proposition if there swells and moderate seas.

The Germans also used airborne forces

Battle of Dombås - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[duckie]

They largely used ships and aimed to disembark in ports, which proved expensive in ships even IOTL. The major thing they developed for amphibious landings after that was the Seibel Ferry and that was a dubious proposition if there swells and moderate seas.

You are forgetting the Marine Fahrprahm (MFP)

 

[BELFAST]

You are forgetting the Marine Fahrprahm (MFP)

mostly used in the fighting against the soviets on the eastern front.

Marinefährprahm - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Sceonn]

Wasn't the invasion of Sicily an invaluable learning experience?