Christians don't worship Mary. Not even Catholics.
Well, yes we "venerate" her, but the veneration almost borders on worshipping her, thus giving some credence to Abdul's pots. Why else would she have so many shrines?
Muhammad the Jew
- Thread starter Emperor Qianlong
- Start date
Well, yes we "venerate" her, but the veneration almost borders on worshipping her, thus giving some credence to Abdul's pots. Why else would she have so many shrines?
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
The word "venerate" is a fig-leaf. Mary is worshipped, period. People pray to her, and in many times and places has semi-officially (or even officially) been regarded as Co-Redemtrix with Christ- if you ever visit Poland, she's bigger there than God.
For that matter, the whole Saint complex is just a huge, disparate diguised pagan pantheon - a decent number of them are actually pagan deities or at least pagan deities fused with semi-historical figures (i.e. St Brigid).
It seems to me that anyone who doesn't see pre-Christian traditions and practices coopted into Christian practice is just not paying attention - or has immense powers of denial.
Keenir
Banned
you mean nobody believed in Purgatory before the Christians did?
I know for certain that Ancient Egypt had a form of it (before going to paradise or having your soul eaten, you had to stand before a judge and jury - "my heart, my heart, do not testify/speak against me!")
I think post-Captivity Judaism had a form of it.
Philip
Donor
How, exactly, do you determine the contents of people's hearts? How do you determine that person is worshiping Mary? What makes you the judge of others' practices?
And? Prayer, in Catholic (as well as many other systems) is not worship.
Do you understand how she is regarded as such? How it fits into Catholic doctrine?
For someone who is always insisting that people learn Ottoman history before speaking about it, you have an extremely flawed view of the development of Christian doctrine. Ever read John Chrysostom's Cult of the Saints?
Debatable.
In the same way that Catholics do? No. No one did. Don't believe it? Then offer some proof.
And what does that have to do with Purgatory? In Catholic theology, a soul in Purgatory has already been judge and 'sentenced' to heaven. However, before the soul can enter heaven, it must be purged (hence the name Purgatory) of its remaining sinful guilt. How does that resemble Egyptian belief?
Seriously guys, learn some Catholic theology if you want to criticize it. There are plenty of things to criticize, but misrepresenting it is a waste of time.
Abdul, let me explain it to you this way. In the United States, Congressmen have no executive authority. None, zip, zilch. But if you have a problem with the executive that seems intractible -- tax dispute, environmental concerns, frustration with foreign embassies -- it's a time-honored tradition to call up your Congressman, and he or she will usually do their best to solve your problem for you by pulling some strings with the executive.
Catholic saints work the same way. Catholics pray to saints not because saints are gods, but saints have some influence with God. The Catholic God, unlike some other omnipotent beings, takes advice from mortals that He likes.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
That's right, but in a monotheistic religion, there are no congressmen, just the President.
If you have a statue of a saint that you pray before, or an icon of a saint that you kiss and pray before, you're worshipping it, not venerating it. And Saints are not just called upon to intercede on your behalf with God (which should be pointless anyway as God is omnipotent and omniscient), they are ascribed their own divine powers - for instance, people flock to the reputed last residence of Mary at Ephesus for a fertility boost at the fountain she blessed. If that's not pagan, I'm a polka-dot platypus.
Venerate: To regard with respect, reverence, or heartfelt deference.
Worship:
a. The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
b. The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.
If you have a statue of a saint that you pray before, or an icon of a saint that you kiss and pray before, you're worshipping it, not venerating it. And Saints are not just called upon to intercede on your behalf with God (which should be pointless anyway as God is omnipotent and omniscient), they are ascribed their own divine powers - for instance, people flock to the reputed last residence of Mary at Ephesus for a fertility boost at the fountain she blessed. If that's not pagan, I'm a polka-dot platypus.
Venerate: To regard with respect, reverence, or heartfelt deference.
Worship:
a. The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
b. The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.
To get back to the original topic the thread (thus far, some very interesting aspects, btw!), I have a question... any chance to get a Jewish Al-Andalus, or will the Arabs not make it that far?
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
Well, I would think Jews wouldn't give it an Arabic name!
But no. Unless you can come up with a Jewish polity with serious military power. I doubt you could get the Khazars all the way to Iberia...
Philip
Donor
Says who? Why can't the god of a monotheistic religion listen to mortals?
Why? Because you say so?
By the same logic, asking your friend to pray for you is pointless. Furthermore, praying to God is pointless as well.
According to Catholic teachings, any miracle ascribed to Mary is due to God's grace working through her. It is not due to any power of Mary herself. You really should study Catholic theology if you want to criticize it.
Whose definitions are these? Are the the formal definitions used by Christian, especially Catholic, theologians? (Hint: they are not.)
Philip
Donor
Well, I would think Jews wouldn't give it an Arabic name!
Unless they are Jewish Arabs.
Isn't such a polity implicit in the title of the thread: Muhammad the Jew?
Keenir
Banned
the Aztec way, of course.
maybe if they're - I don't know - worshipping her.
riiight, next you'll say that salat isn't prayer either.
your statement makes no sense -- I need to offer proof that I don't believe your utterly brief statement??
given that I learned Catholic theology from a Catholic priest, all I can say is that I haven't a clue what sect of Catholocism you're following.
Keenir
Banned
do you bother reading past the first line?
he just said, quite flatly, that in monotheism, an all-powerful God can hear everyone without the need of intermediaries.
you really don't understand humans either, it seems.
"blessed art thou amongst women" is just one line of what praises Mary. if she were nothing at all (as you're suggesting), then why is she being praised?
Keenir, are you mentioning the "Je vous salue Marie"?
Je vous salue, Marie pleine de grâce ; le Seigneur est avec vous. Vous êtes bénie entre toutes les femmes Et Jésus, le fruit de vos entrailles, est béni. Sainte Marie, Mère de Dieu, priez pour nous pauvres pécheurs, maintenant et à l'heure de notre mort. Amen
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
There's a big difference between doctrine and how people actually see things and worship. If you get on a plane and fly to Turkey for the magical fertility powers of a fountain that is at a house that a German nun had a vision telling her that Mary lived in it, you are worshipping Mary in a way that the Church fathers might not approve of (yet refrain from condemning - better misguided followers than none). You are not following arcane doctine, designed to draw a veneer of legitimacy over practices that you have no hope of stopping - which is only accessible to a small number of people, and only intended to be. I remember very well how questions were not terribly well received in Catholic school - for instance, we all knew there was an Arian Heresy, but nobody would tell us what it was...
In any case, if everyone followed "doctine", there would be no need to burn anyone at the stake.
In any case, if everyone followed "doctine", there would be no need to burn anyone at the stake.
Abdul, I assure you, if I haven't burned Keenir at the stake by now for his Aussie hereticism, I will not pray to the saints to have you burned at the stake either.
Anyhow ... I think the fundamental question if Muhammad becomes a Jew is, does his conversion satisfy his zeal? In this alternate universe, perhaps it's part of Allah/YHWH's divine plan for Muhammad to be never heard of outside of his community.
Anyhow ... I think the fundamental question if Muhammad becomes a Jew is, does his conversion satisfy his zeal? In this alternate universe, perhaps it's part of Allah/YHWH's divine plan for Muhammad to be never heard of outside of his community.
Leo Caesius
Banned
The traditional period of mourning for a parent is twelve months, during eleven months of which the kaddish is said. During this period, the soul spends some time purifying itself before it passes into heaven. Similar beliefs are held by other Near Eastern groups; the Mandaeans, for example, believe that the soul spends some time cooling its heels in stellar "toll stations" before passing along to Alma d-Nhura, the Light World.
I don't see why. Harry Turtledove imagined an Orthodox St. Muhammad who created a bunch of hymns, not an empire; not only is a Jewish caliphate even less plausible, but there's no reason to assume that the Jewish Muhammad has to do everything else like his OTL equivalent.
He's not a Catholic at all.
Max Sinister
Banned
"there's no reason to assume that the Jewish Muhammad has to do everything else like his OTL equivalent."
Yes - if we change his personality, pretty much everything could happen.
Yes - if we change his personality, pretty much everything could happen.
I'll note a Jewish Arabia showed up recently on the map thread...
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=1283448#post1283448
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=71542&page=25
from where it spreads to East Africa and points East.
Hmm. Jewish Indonesia?
Bruce
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=1283448#post1283448
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=71542&page=25
from where it spreads to East Africa and points East.
Hmm. Jewish Indonesia?
Bruce