Muhammad the Jew
- Thread starter Emperor Qianlong
- Start date
I think you're right. However, the "Old Testament' itself is silent on the matter I think. As such, it would be from rabbinical sources, and likely the Talmud specifically, where we would find a discussion of Obadiah's origins.
Philip
Donor
Not really. Even by the time of the Maccabees, the Hebrews were lamenting the end of the succession of the prophets. Josephus records that it ended with the destruction of the First Temple. While the Jews continued to teach that some people could still prophesy, the office of Prophet had ended.
To be accepted, I think he will have to claim to be either the Messiah or one the prophets (Elijah or Enoch are the best choices) returned.
Leo Caesius
Banned
I think that the idea of a Jewish caliphate is pretty much out of the question. While some form of Judaism might do well in Arabia, I can't imagine the millions of Christians and Zoroastrians living outside of the region converting en masse to something recognizably Jewish rather than an ostensibly new faith that resembles their own in many important ways. So either Reb Mechammadh leavens his Judaism with something that appeals to Christians and Zoroastrians (giving us something essentially like Islam) or he and his faith remain confined to the peninsula.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
I don't think that's a particularly important consideration. In any case, only the most wealthy men ever had more than one wife, and that was almost always considered a huge burden, not a benefit.
Imagine for a moment having two or more wives, that all know each other, live in the same place, and have the legal right to equal treatment...
Keenir
Banned
what would it take to revive the office? a really influential prophesy-ing person? (like John the Baptist in Christian tradition)
Muhammed could claim the title of Nasi. The last Gamaliel VI had lived during the reign of Theodosius. Perhaps Reb Mechammadh reconvenes the Sanhedrin with help from the Geonim of Babylon? That could make for some interesting Talmudic debates. Perhaps a drastically changed form of Judaism?
Philip
Donor
I'm not really sure. If Josephus was correct and the office ended with the destruction of the First Temple, perhaps a Third Temple would have to be built. Or maybe this could be the goal of the prophet-to-be.
The biggest problem would be the current power structure within Judaism. They have a vested interest in not having a prophet show up. Maybe if you can get the rank and file dissatisfied with current leaders, they could be rally around the new prophet.
When the Axum Kingdom conquered Yemen in 520, the reason given was -
That the recently converted [To Judism] King of Yemen was trying to force all the Chistians in Yemen to Convert.
During the first millinium Judism was a proselytizing religion.
If the Axum Conquest fails, then by 580 when the Dam fails, and the Yemenites disperse across Arabia,
Most of them would be Judismites, which could easy include Mohammad's Mechantile Family.
I can see the Arabs boiling out of the Desert and taking the Levant.
They would not get Eygpt, Anatolia, or Metopomia.
So they would lose the levant, to one of the three, retake it a generation later, only to relose it, in a thousand year cycle.
That the recently converted [To Judism] King of Yemen was trying to force all the Chistians in Yemen to Convert.
During the first millinium Judism was a proselytizing religion.
If the Axum Conquest fails, then by 580 when the Dam fails, and the Yemenites disperse across Arabia,
Most of them would be Judismites, which could easy include Mohammad's Mechantile Family.
I can see the Arabs boiling out of the Desert and taking the Levant.
They would not get Eygpt, Anatolia, or Metopomia.
So they would lose the levant, to one of the three, retake it a generation later, only to relose it, in a thousand year cycle.
Keenir
Banned
why not? the peoples of Egypt (and Mesopotamia) might prefer them over continued rule by the Byzantines.
The People of Eygpt were Monophyisites,[sp], and welcomed the MonoPhyisite like religion of Islam,
Eygpt co-operated in it's conquest by Islam
This would not be true of Judism, which was hated by the Chistians in Eygpt, & Byzamitium.
Nor would the Zoastrians in Mesopotamia willing accept.
AND Without the power base of Eygpt, Arabia can not Conquer.
Eygpt co-operated in it's conquest by Islam
This would not be true of Judism, which was hated by the Chistians in Eygpt, & Byzamitium.
Nor would the Zoastrians in Mesopotamia willing accept.
AND Without the power base of Eygpt, Arabia can not Conquer.
Indeed, Jews and Judaism weren't overly liked by the Christians of Byzantium and Egypt, and there's a good chance that the Copts would not be so willing to welcome Jewish conquerors...
When the Muslims conquered Egypt, they regarded Islam as nothing more than yet another Christian or pseudo-Christian sect, and one of which the adherants were willing to be more friendly and tolerant to the Copts than the Byzantines were.
But an agressive, conquering Jewish empire would have been a true nightmare for many contemporary Christians...
...and depending on how this Muhammedan Jewish movement develops, there is also a chance that such a militant Judaic movement would develop some rather nasty anti-Christian tendencies.
After all, we can't say that the Byzantine Empire has been overly friendly towards its Jewish citizens, and this could very well have some rather unpleasant effects on the Jewish-Christian relations in this scenario...
Anyway, the relations between this Muhammedan Jewish movement and the various Christian communities that it will encounter should be rather interesting...
Actually, the Jews and Zoroastrians were generally on fairly good therms with eachother, and unless the followers of Mohammed/Mechammad do something stupid like attempting to convert the Zoroastrians and destroying their temples, I wouldn't be suprised if the Zoroastrians would actually prefer Jewish overlordship over Christian rule.
True - Egypt is what made the early Caliphate a real empire, and any Arab empire is going to be much weaker if it fails to gain control of Egypt.
Keenir
Banned
could they use Mesopotamia as a power base instead?
on the other hand...
why do I have this mental image of the Egyptian Christians doing mental gynmastics to justify their throwing their lot in with the new Arabian Judaism....
"they called themselves Jews because the pagans of Arabia weren't ready for Christianity, whereas we know better..."
basically like Marx's idea of how civilization has to go through stages that include capitalism.
Max Sinister
Banned
Only outside of Europe, however, it seems.
If polygamy just had disadvantages, why did they keep it then? Mohammed even restricted the number of wives to four.
Hendryk
Banned
Depending on how you look at it, OTL's Islam already pretty much looks like a proselyte version of Judaism. Much more so, in fact, than Christianity, which as is being discussed in another thread, picked up a number of elements from manichaean traditions along the way, and focuses on orthodoxy rather than orthopraxy (to say nothing of its pagan elements like the Son of God thing). Both Judaism and Islam are primarily orthopractic, and there is sizeable overlap between their respective regulations.
Philip
Donor
Is this meant to be a joke? Islam is not a monophysite religion. Monophysitism teaches that Christ had one nature that was both Divine and human. Such is completely incompatible with Islam.
If you could economically support them. If you couldn't support more than one, you logically weren't allowed to/couldn't have more than one.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
The same reason Christians worship Mary and believe in Purgatory. Easier to coopt than try to stamp out. Polygamy has never been common in Islamic society - it is usually done as a status thing - if you are rich and powerful, you have more than one wife. If you read the literature on this, most people found it a horrendous burden, both psychologically and financially.
The only people who it really worked for - and this is probably another reason it was retained - were monarchs, who couldn't be taken to court by their wives and smashed into little pieces like everyone else.
I was reading a study of the Sharia court records from Haifa - women knew their rights and were quick to sue for them, and virtually always won when they were in the right.
Philip
Donor
Christians don't worship Mary. Not even Catholics.Except that Catholicism did not coopt these beliefs. Unlike polygamy being retained by Muslims, both the veneration of Mary and the doctrine of Purgatory are well developed, even integral, parts of Catholic theology.