Mowque Reads TL-191

[teg]

I forgot about the Huey Long one. And that was is even more impressive since it was inside the CSA. That being said, it is probably Turtledove unsure of what to do with Anne at that point.

I think with the Long incident, its possible that Featherstone was trying to provoke Long into a fight and sending could easily have been part of that. "I hold you in such contempt that I am going to send a woman to treat with you" or something like that.

teg

 

[Georgepatton]

Huey Long was the biggest threat to Featherston's rule in the CSA at that point. He couldn't send anyone to treat with Long other than someone he had confidence in.

And if he'd thought less of Anne on account of her sex, we'd have heard about it. Featherston was never shy about sharing his views on anything and everything, especially once he got into power.

 

[Trotsky]

I think with the Long incident, its possible that Featherstone was trying to provoke Long into a fight and sending could easily have been part of that. "I hold you in such contempt that I am going to send a woman to treat with you" or something like that.

teg

Featherston; he's not related to Fred and Wilma.

And Featherston doesn't need to provoke a fight with Huey Long, or fight him period. He wants Long out of his way, one way or the other.

 

[Flubber]

I would agree with this except for that fact that Featherston actually did use Anne Colleton as an emissary in the novels.

Look at both those situations again.

Colleton is sent to France, but unofficially as Mowque pointed and you overlooked. She helps set up backdoor links between Action Francaise and the Freedom, ruling political parties which have not yet suppressed all there domestic rivals, and not official links between the governments of France and the CSA. She's also sent because of her well-known pre-GW1 cultural links with France. She's setting up alternate line of communication, she isn't negotiating treaties.

Colleton is sent to Long as part of a smoke screen. Long knows of her thanks to her financial contributions to both Freedom and the Whigs. Long also knows her visit is "officially unofficial". Again, Anne isn't there to negotiate anything or carry any messages. She's there to signal Featherton's men when they can kill Long and she can do that because her unofficial nature keeps Long from being fully suspicious of her.

Anne's roles are always unofficial and behind the scenes. She lets certain people know how they can talk to certain other people, she relays deniable messages, she works behind the scenes. With regards to your idea about the UK sending troops to Virginia, Anne would meet with Churchill to tell him about Featherston's desire to talk and then step aside while the actual negotiations were done by others.

Anne runs up against the CSA's glass ceiling repeatedly in the series and that fact that she's allowed to somewhat play with the boys only makes the presence of that glass ceiling all the more noticeable.

 

[bguy]

Anne's roles are always unofficial and behind the scenes. She lets certain people know how they can talk to certain other people, she relays deniable messages, she works behind the scenes. With regards to your idea about the UK sending troops to Virginia, Anne would meet with Churchill to tell him about Featherston's desire to talk and then step aside while the actual negotiations were done by others.

Sure, but just because her role would be unofficial doesn't mean it wouldn't be important. Just look at OTL's Harry Hopkins. He wasn't the Secretary of State or an official ambassador, but FDR still used him as his primary envoy to Churchill in 1940 and Stalin in 1941. Anne's not going to be made Secretary of State, but she could certainly have served in a Harry Hopkins like role.

 

[mowque]

Cincinnatus


As I may have said before, I like Cincinnatus. While he doesn’t exactly show growth, his circumstances change enough that it seems like it. For now however, he is still in northern Kentucky, which is now under USA control. He is working on the loading docks, moving war equipment for the Army. Despite being under USA jurisdiction, his life hasn’t improved much. He is still paid peanuts and still harassed at work by a racially charged boss. If anything they are more aggressive than the causal racism of the old South. The chapter ends with him getting in touch with the Confederate underground about ‘disinfectant’ being sent to the front. We’ll talk about that in the later section.

A nice segment, and the characters call-backs to slavery days were well-chosen and good to make people realize that manumission wasn’t that long ago.

 

[Flubber]

Just look at OTL's Harry Hopkins.

You obviously know nothing about Hopkins and his relationship with FDR if you think Anne Colleton could have had the same relationship with Featherston.

Hopkins had been in public service since the 1920s. He first came to Governor FDR's notice for his work in that state's emergency relief organization. His work was so good that Governor FDR promoted him and, after the '32 election, President FDR brought him to Washington to run the national version of NY's relief program, the WPA.

Hopkins was part of FDR's inner circle, one of the designers of the New Deal, and held a series of appointed positions within FDR's administrations. FDR was even grooming Hopkins for a presidential run in 1940 when Hopkins' bout with cancer scuttled those plans.

All Colleton ever did was write checks and twist arms behind the scenes. She was not part of Featherston's inner circle, she had no input on policy, she never implemented policy, and she held no positions. Suggesting she had or could have had anything resembling Hopkins' career or impact is ludicrous.

He wasn't the Secretary of State or an official ambassador, but FDR still used him as his primary envoy to Churchill in 1940 and Stalin in 1941.

Good sweet Christ... It's as if you believe FDR just picked Hopkins out the phone book.

Hopkins was sent to Britain in '40 because FDR couldn't get a straight story out of the official ambassador, Joseph Kennedy Sr. The UK government was also so pissed with old Joe that they requested FDR send someone he trusted to ascertain what the real situation was. Thanks to his bout with cancer, Hopkins was no longer running the WPA and was at loose ends. FDR trusted him implicitly and, thanks to Hopkins' 10+ in federal service and closeness with FDR, knew that Hopkins could be trusted to report back impartially.

Hopkins was then sent to Stalin in '41 because at that time Hopkins was the administrator of the Lend Lease program. FDR wanted to know whether the USSR should be included in the Lend Lease program and what sort of materials would be needed, so he sent the man who ran the program in question. Shocking, isn't it?

Anne's not going to be made Secretary of State, but she could certainly have served in a Harry Hopkins like role.

No she cannot because she has nothing resembling the skills, experience, and reputation Hopkins did. More importantly, Anne does not have the same relationship with Featherston that Hopkins had with FDR, a relationship that included a long shared history making and implementing policy at the national level.

 

[bguy]

You obviously know nothing about Hopkins and his relationship with FDR if you think Anne Colleton could have had the same relationship with Featherston.

Hopkins had been in public service since the 1920s. He first came to Governor FDR's notice for his work in that state's emergency relief organization. His work was so good that Governor FDR promoted him and, after the '32 election, President FDR brought him to Washington to run the national version of NY's relief program, the WPA.

Hopkins was part of FDR's inner circle, one of the designers of the New Deal, and held a series of appointed positions within FDR's administrations. FDR was even grooming Hopkins for a presidential run in 1940 when Hopkins' bout with cancer scuttled those plans.

What exactly is your point here? Obviously Anne Colleton's background isn't exactly the same as Harry Hopkins, and that's ok because the circumstances of the two going to Europe would be very different. Hopkins was going as a representative of the most powerful nation on the world, which was at peace, and was having to decide whether to give support to the British or not. Colleton would be going as a representative of a weak nation that was at war, and was trying to get help from the British. Hopkins' mission called for someone who could make a dispassionate judgment on whether Britain would keep fighting or not, it thus needed someone with analytical skills who would not be swayed by a Churchillian dog and pony show. Colleton's mission by contrast would call for someone who could convince the British that the Confederates were still worth supporting, it thus calls for someone with persuasion skills that can put on a good show. Different mission requirements call for people with different skill sets. And the original point was never that Anne Colleton was an expy for Harry Hopkins. Hopkins was just an example of a leader using an unofficial envoy for important diplomatic work. There are countless other examples of the same principle.

All Colleton ever did was write checks and twist arms behind the scenes. She was not part of Featherston's inner circle, she had no input on policy, she never implemented policy, and she held no positions. Suggesting she had or could have had anything resembling Hopkins' career or impact is ludicrous.

Colleton did a number of significant jobs for Featherston. IIRC she helped design his campaign convention for his '33 presidential run. He wouldn't have given her a job that big if he didn't trust her work. And as already mentioned she previously conducted diplomatic work for him and played a major part in his elimination of Huey Long, so clearly he trusts her to handle sensitive jobs.

As for Featherston's inner circle, well who exactly in it do you think would be qualified to do a diplomatic mission? Featherston didn't have very many people that he really trusted, and the ones he did trust (Koenig, maybe Goldman) were busy during the war with other vital tasks and are wholly unsuited by training, experience, and temperment to do diplomatic work. Of the people he respected, Anne was the most qualified for such a mission.

Hopkins was sent to Britain in '40 because FDR couldn't get a straight story out of the official ambassador, Joseph Kennedy Sr. The UK government was also so pissed with old Joe that they requested FDR send someone he trusted to ascertain what the real situation was.

And how is that situation any different than in the TL-191 novels? It's canonical in the novels that Featherston did not trust his State Department. That's exactly why he would need to send a special envoy.

Thanks to his bout with cancer, Hopkins was no longer running the WPA and was at loose ends. FDR trusted him implicitly and, thanks to Hopkins' 10+ in federal service and closeness with FDR, knew that Hopkins could be trusted to report back impartially.

And Featherston has trusted Anne with important missions. He does have concerns about her loyalty but not about her competence. And while his relationship with her is not as strong a relationship as the FDR-Hopkins one, it doesn't need to be. Again Hopkins was going to access Britain's ability and willingness to keep fighting. Thus FDR needed to be able to implicitly trust Hopkins' judgment in order to rely upon his accessment. By contrast Anne is going to persuade the British. Featherston doesn't have to trust her judgment because she isn't being asked to render analysis. He just has to trust her persuasive ability.

No she cannot because she has nothing resembling the skills, experience, and reputation Hopkins did. More importantly, Anne does not have the same relationship with Featherston that Hopkins had with FDR, a relationship that included a long shared history making and implementing policy at the national level.

Hopkins didn't initially have a reputation overseas. Churchill had to have it explained to him that Hopkins was actually someone important who had the President's ear.

As for Anne's skills and experience, she is a charismatic, educated, intelligent person who is familiar with Europe, comfortable in upper class circles, and has years of prior diplomatic experience specifically working for Featherston in Europe. Thus she has both the skills and experienced needed for this mission. Likewise Featherston doesn't really have anyone else he could trust to be able to conduct such a mission. He doesn't have access to a huge Brain Trust like FDR did and most of the people he does trust aren't suited for diplomatic work. Of the people that Featherston actually respects, Anne is the most qualified for such a mission.

 

[mowque]

Tangent city....

 

[Umbric Man]

Thank God for Bguy giving the burn to Flubber, because that was straight-up bullying and snideness Flubber offered without any actual reason to do so.

Mowque, I'm sorry, but I have no more desire to be in this thread if he's going to be around. I quite enjoyed the initial time I had in the thread and I love your commentary, so it's nothing against you, but I'm tired of seeing him try to argue everything around on TL-191 with such arrogance.

 

[mowque]

Just read my excellent posts.....Don't make it personal.

 

[Flubber]

Thank God for Bguy giving the burn to Flubber...

He didn't burn anything, White Knight. I had another refutation to his moronic Colleton as Hopkins suggestion when I read Mowque's comment on tangents.

Like you, I'll just be reading Mowque's post in this thread from now on so you can follow along without your feelings getting hurt.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

Moss carries much of the ‘wizard’s war’ weight, the changing technology during war. This fits nicely since Moss is a airplane pilot and just klike OTL, the Great War is spurring fast change. True to form Moss and his observer (Stone) have worked out a new system to talk to each other over the roaring windstream. It works on a test flight over enemy ground, which lifts there spirits from the miserable battlefield below them. Canada has dug in and is making the USA pay for every inch. Frankly, I find it hard to buy that in a nation as big as Canada, we simply can’t flank them with our, probably, 3-1 ratio. But Turtledove wants hell in the North so he gets it.

I like Jonathon Moss as a character as he does get some great growth and his inter-war life is so appropriately tragic that I found it easy to sympathise with him throughout the whole work. He came off as nuanced and interesting. Some of his ideas were brilliant too.

In regards to the bolded, I did take issue with the seeming stalemate on the Great Plains (because unless the Canadians had dug trenches and planted barbed wire for miles around the city and rail lines there was no way they wouldn't have drawn the Americans into the city and had a house to house show down.

Though if the US is sending less troops there and to the Rockies I can understand why it might be a harder slogging match (I did get the vibe from the book).

Now as to the Ontario and Maritime fronts, I have no problems believing the carnage there. It's a defenders wet dream to put it mildly. You have woodsy, swampy rocky territory around most of the Great Lakes and overland routes near Maine, and the Peninsula would only need an absurdly small number of defenders to check a force up to 5x its size.

It's probably one of the only places on the continent where true trench warfare would develop quickly.

 

[modelcitizen]

I like Jonathon Moss as a character as he does get some great growth and his inter-war life is so appropriately tragic that I found it easy to sympathise with him throughout the whole work. He came off as nuanced and interesting. Some of his ideas were brilliant too.

...

....

How far into the book is this thread?


I'm holding back from yammering about certain things done by Moss but yeah.

 

[mowque]

I am going to revive this. As soon as I can find my old stopping place.

 

[mowque]

Cincinnatus

An interesting little bit. We get a small combonation of bigger war, cultural issues, and character development. Cincinnatus helps unload some odd stuff for the US Army, which we (and he) guesses is some type of super weapon. It will turn out to be gas.
Cultural issues of how the invading Northern Army is dealing with the African-American community in conquered territory. Fairly interesting and nice to see Turtledove use a gradient of types of Northerners.
Finally we see Cincinnatus, due to a number of circumstances, contuine to help (at great personal risk) the Confederate Underground. Poor guy is stuck pretty tightly.

 

[mowque]

Galtier

Ah, good. My favorite character is good after a bit of a break. Easier to get back into the series.

This is the scene that really gets Lucien involved in the occupation. Before he was just another anti-American farmer getting his crops and wealth stolen. In this scene he directly turns out any collobaration between him and the newly forming America-Quebec power structure. Now he is singled out as not being cooperative.

It is a brave move and not one I'm sure I'd make in his position.

 

[mowque]

Dowling

Another 'bigger picture' sequence. Dowling is at the front line with Cutser overseeing the first use on American soil of poison gas. It is hinted at being used in Europe with great effect (interesting that Turtledove puts Europe ahead of America). The press coverage is impressive and Custer is preening more then usual.
The attack goes off without a hitch and it seems that gas is a terriable weapon. Lots of good imagery here, since gas and WW1 go together like ham and eggs. I can see why Turtledove made gas such a big deal in TL-191. It brings home that American can be home to horrible things on battlefields as well. Like trenches, having posion gas being used in Kentucky highlights the alien-ness of the timeline.

 

[cortz#9]

Wow I'm surprised to see this is alive and kicking again but glad too and I agree with you that Turtledove's description of WWI battlefields in the US is very alien and much more interesting than some of his alt WWII battlefield descriptions in his other works.

 

[Meadow]

Glad this is back!