Mowque Reads TL-191

[MNP]

Turtledove does his usual competent job of showing the confused brutality of war. Death, destruction, shells and hate reign around Martin as he fights to hold back a Rebel attack. Turtledove action sequences are always somewhat ‘abstracted’ (They are fairly detail light) but I think they serve the purpose. He does a good job of working in quick depictions of weapons and people caught up in a military action.

For some reason I really liked the way he did battles in the Darkness series (WWII in a world with magic).

 

[Flubber]

Turtledove action sequences are always somewhat ‘abstracted’ (They are fairly detail light) but I think they serve the purpose. He does a good job of working in quick depictions of weapons and people caught up in a military action.

I must agree. The way he handles battle scenes is another of Turtledove's few successes. It's as if he realized he couldn't bring off an uber-detailed, painstakingly plotted combat scene ala David Drake and chose to play up the chaotic, don't know what's going on elsewhere nature of combat instead.

Not only does writing combat scenes in that manner fit Turtledove's muliple POV motif better, it also keeps him from writing more unnecessary filler.

(Speaking of Drake, I swear I have PTSD after reading some his work.)

 

[mowque]

Anne Colleton

And with a case of whiplash, we are back in South Carolina. War changes things, and not just politics and nations. It changes people. Anne realizes this when her brother, Tom, comes back from the front. He is uninjured (indeed, even promoted) but not the same. He is a hardened man, having lost much of the lightness of her his personality to the horrors of the trenches. Turtledove does a good job of not over doing it but more emphasizing Anne's discomfort.

Another reason he upsets Anne is that he mentions Red cells among the blacks of the Army. He says they have been rooting out dozens of Marxist groups. He even grimly remarks that there own plantation is probably infested. Anne stomps that idea right out and guides the conversation to another topic, but it plants the barest seed.

A nice character chapter and while Tom will never grow much as a character his POVs (when they come in a few books) are always straight forward and action packed.

 

[Flubber]

Anne Colleton...

I always found Anne to be one of the more intriguing characters in the series. She's another of Turtledove's rare successes.

While I'd absolutely loathe her if she had been an actual human being, her various POVs showing the racism/classism she directed at others and the sexism others directed at her gave me a great deal of insight into her world and the CSA.

She prides herself on being more pragmatic than those around her, especially the men around her, but she finds the tables turned more often than she'd like to admit. She hooks up with the sub skipper as a way of proving to herself that she can use lower class whites in the same manner she uses blacks and then is shocked to realize that Kimball views her as nothing more than a high class whore available for booty calls whenever he's ashore.

There are other situations when Anne is force to contemplate that reality is not quite what she wishes to believe it is and I found all of them illuminating.

It's both a shame and telling that Turtledove kills off in almost an afterthought when GW2 begins. She and her POV had become more and more marginalized as the series focused more on the Featherstone/Hitler/GW2/WW2 schtick. It would have been interesting to see her reaction to the population reduction campaign and the CSA's defeat, but I think Turtledove knew he couldn't handle that as a writer and killing her off meant he wouldn't have to try.

 

[bguy]

It's both a shame and telling that Turtledove kills off in almost an afterthought when GW2 begins. She and her POV had become more and more marginalized as the series focused more on the Featherstone/Hitler/GW2/WW2 schtick. It would have been interesting to see her reaction to the population reduction campaign and the CSA's defeat, but I think Turtledove knew he couldn't handle that as a writer and killing her off meant he wouldn't have to try.

Agreed. She also would have been an excellent viewpoint character to see more of the European side of GW2. (Featherston could have sent her as his emissary to meet with the British and French throughout the conflict.)

 

[mowque]

Agreed. She also would have been an excellent viewpoint character to see more of the European side of GW2. (Featherston could have sent her as his emissary to meet with the British and French throughout the conflict.)

Well, of course, this goes against Turtledove's approach during the whole series, which is to only look at America. This is an odd choice since he shows in Worldwar, he can do a whole globe. I think it was a stylistic choice to enhance the 'odd AH feeling' for the American reader.

 

[bguy]

Well, of course, this goes against Turtledove's approach during the whole series, which is to only look at America. This is an odd choice since he shows in Worldwar, he can do a whole globe. I think it was a stylistic choice to enhance the 'odd AH feeling' for the American reader.

He did occasionally have his characters go to Europe though: George Enos running guns to the Irish rebels; Sam Carsten making port calls in Ireland and France post-war and so forth, so I don't think it would have been out of the question for him to have Anne Colleton meeting Churchill in London or something like that. And having Anne trying to get the British to send an expeditionary force to Virginia would certainly enhance the odd AH feeling of the series. (And if the British actually agreed to send some troops then that would set up a later scene with Featherston having to deal with Montgomery.)

 

[mowque]

He did occasionally have his characters go to Europe though: George Enos running guns to the Irish rebels; Sam Carsten making port calls in Ireland and France post-war and so forth, so I don't think it would have been out of the question for him to have Anne Colleton meeting Churchill in London or something like that. And having Anne trying to get the British to send an expeditionary force to Virginia would certainly enhance the odd AH feeling of the series. (And if the British actually agreed to send some troops then that would set up a later scene with Featherston having to deal with Montgomery.)

I don't think the UK was ever doing well enough to afford that sort of thing or had good enough control of the oceans. But we are getting ahead of ourselves....

 

[mowque]

Jonathan Moss


Moss carries much of the ‘wizard’s war’ weight, the changing technology during war. This fits nicely since Moss is a airplane pilot and just klike OTL, the Great War is spurring fast change. True to form Moss and his observer (Stone) have worked out a new system to talk to each other over the roaring windstream. It works on a test flight over enemy ground, which lifts there spirits from the miserable battlefield below them. Canada has dug in and is making the USA pay for every inch. Frankly, I find it hard to buy that in a nation as big as Canada, we simply can’t flank them with our, probably, 3-1 ratio. But Turtledove wants hell in the North so he gets it.


Stone gets shot by an attacking plane but Moss gets back safely. It is a fairly boring scene really but nice that Stone lives. Turtledove is no slouch to killing off named people.

 

[bguy]

I don't think the UK was ever doing well enough to afford that sort of thing or had good enough control of the oceans. But we are getting ahead of ourselves....

Well we are talking about Winston Churchill here, the man who never met a secondary theater he didn't like. But yeah I suppose we are getting ahead of ourselves.

 

[Thande]

Well we are talking about Winston Churchill here, the man who never met a secondary theater he didn't like.

"The soft underbelly of America"...

 

[Flubber]

Agreed. She also would have been an excellent viewpoint character to see more of the European side of GW2. (Featherston could have sent her as his emissary to meet with the British and French throughout the conflict.)

In merely thinking that Colleton could be dispatched as an emissary, your own cultural blinders are showing. You're looking at the possibility as an inhabitant of the 21st Century decades after the women's rights movement has been active and not as the inhabitant of Turtledove's 1930s, socially conservative, alt-CSA.

While Turtledove's alt-USA is no beacon of sexual equality, there are women serving in Congress. Is there even a suggestion that a CSA counterpart to Flora Hamburger exists? Is there any hint of women holding elected positions at any level of CSA government? Or even serving in appointed positions other than prison guards?

A big part of Anne's POV is the comparison between the automatic racism/classism she inflicts on others and the automatic sexism others inflict on her. Politicians and political parties will take her money, but they won't really listen to her. She gets to chat with Wilson or Featherstone's minions because they're being polite and they want checks in the future. None of them are actually interested in her opinions or suggestions. She's just a pretty little thing who needs to be humored in return for contributions. She wants to be among the movers and shakers but they, because of her sex, only want to shake her down for money.

Look at the trouble Anne has making her own broker listen to her specific instructions with regards to her investments when the CSA's economy implodes after GW1. She has to directly threaten him with legal action and, if memory serves, remind him that her brother, a veteran of trench fighting, will call on him if her instructions are not followed. To her broker, Anne is incapable of making real decisions regarding her finances because she is a woman.

When you take time to remember the actual culture of the CSA Turtledove's series shows us, the idea that Anne Colleton or any other woman would be dispatched as an emissary or special ambassador is ludicrous.

 

[Thande]

Well, of course, this goes against Turtledove's approach during the whole series, which is to only look at America. This is an odd choice since he shows in Worldwar, he can do a whole globe. I think it was a stylistic choice to enhance the 'odd AH feeling' for the American reader.

My view of the TL-191 series was that Turtledove was using it to make a philosophical point, which was "American exceptionalism is nonsense, the only reason America is politically and culturally different to Europe in OTL is that it didn't have two massive wars fought in it in the 20th century, and if they were, then you'd have a 'Europeanised' USA". That's why he never bothers to show anywhere else--because the whole point is to compare the ATL USA to OTL Europe, so adding ATL Europe into the mix would just confuse matters. This is also I think why he's so trigger-happy with convergence and analogues in that series, when his other work shows that he usually doesn't do it as much. Unfortunately TL-191 is his best-known series, so this is probably responsible for much of the hate he gets from us 'professional' AHers. It's not a 'conventional' AH work. It is asking 'what if', but not 'what if the Lost Orders weren't and the South won the Civil War?', rather 'what if American history in the 20th century was more like European history?'

 

[mowque]

Stephen Ramsay

Sideshow of a sideshow. This fits well for the Sequoyah Front. It is a minor part of a minor region (Trans-Mississippi). Still, people die and live out here too. Ramsay is firmly planted in with the Native American community by now, arming and attempting to train the locals and turn them into soldiers. Race is an issue but Ramsay deals pretty well with it actually, considering his background.
Chapter is pretty empty, I just summed it up very effectively. Even the reader gets the feeling this is a backwater of a backwater. Uninspiring characters don’t help.

 

[mowque]

Mantarakris

Speaking of backwaters….two weak chapters in a row. Well, this one is better. Mantarakis is being sent off to fight the Mormon rebels. Despite being told by higher ups that it’ll be a quick exercise, he doubts it. Their arrival in Utah shows he was right as they are forced to storm several farmhouses. The Mormons fight hard but in these early skirmishes are crushed by numbers. Frankly the rest of the Rebellion should go just like this...but again, Turtledove needs a darn out running sore.
Mantarakris is pretty much a non-entity, so the chapter, despite the good action, comes across as a bit flat. He lives, and some Mormons don’t. The war grinds on, even in the middle of the American West.

 

[mowque]

My view of the TL-191 series was that Turtledove was using it to make a philosophical point, which was "American exceptionalism is nonsense, the only reason America is politically and culturally different to Europe in OTL is that it didn't have two massive wars fought in it in the 20th century, and if they were, then you'd have a 'Europeanised' USA". That's why he never bothers to show anywhere else--because the whole point is to compare the ATL USA to OTL Europe, so adding ATL Europe into the mix would just confuse matters. This is also I think why he's so trigger-happy with convergence and analogues in that series, when his other work shows that he usually doesn't do it as much. Unfortunately TL-191 is his best-known series, so this is probably responsible for much of the hate he gets from us 'professional' AHers. It's not a 'conventional' AH work. It is asking 'what if', but not 'what if the Lost Orders weren't and the South won the Civil War?', rather 'what if American history in the 20th century was more like European history?'

This is what I was trying to say but Thande said it better. Nice post.

 

[mowque]

When you take time to remember the actual culture of the CSA Turtledove's series shows us, the idea that Anne Colleton or any other woman would be dispatched as an emissary or special ambassador is ludicrous.

That being said, she was sent unofficially to deal with the French right-wing before they took over. But that sort of proves her limitations.

 

[bguy]

When you take time to remember the actual culture of the CSA Turtledove's series shows us, the idea that Anne Colleton or any other woman would be dispatched as an emissary or special ambassador is ludicrous.

I would agree with this except for that fact that Featherston actually did use Anne Colleton as an emissary in the novels. (Both to the French as Mowque already pointed out and to Huey Long.) Whatever else can be said about Jake Featherston, he wasn't a sexist.

It's also canonical in the novels that Featherston didn't trust his own State Department (I believe he said it was full of Whigs) and didn't think too much of his Secretary of State either, so it would make sense for him to do most of his real diplomacy through special envoys.

 

[mowque]

I would agree with this except for that fact that Featherston actually did use Anne Colleton as an emissary in the novels. (Both to the French as Mowque already pointed out and to Huey Long.) Whatever else can be said about Jake Featherston, he wasn't a sexist.

It's also canonical in the novels that Featherston didn't trust his own State Department (I believe he said it was full of Whigs) and didn't think too much of his Secretary of State either, so it would make sense for him to do most of his real diplomacy through special envoys.

I forgot about the Huey Long one. And that was is even more impressive since it was inside the CSA. That being said, it is probably Turtledove unsure of what to do with Anne at that point.

 

[mowque]

Enos

Despite escaping the war for awhile, Enos is going back in. He has few options. His main trade, fishing is insanely dangerous right now due to British/French/CSA raiders. Conscription is circling close and also, minor issue but real, his pride demands he does something. His answer is to joint he Navy. At least he’ll be near the sea, right?
His wife is very upset but can’t convince him otherwise, because he does have a point after all. He has few other options.

A quiet chapter but a more effective one then the last two. Enos is a bit of a snore though. He is so everyman he lacks flavor.