Most suitable successor to the Panzer IV

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The Panzer IV had been the main workhorse of the Wehrmacht, aside from the StuG. But it was already outclassed by Allied tanks by 1944.

If somehow sane people were in charge of war production (and Hitler decide to let them do their jobs) which tanks could've replaced the Panzer IV as the main German front line tank until the end of the war?
 
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Not sure if it would be workable, but I always heard that the Panther was the best German tank. If they could streamline the assembly lines, it might work.
 
Well, there are three options. One is the VK3001 which was the intended successor before Barbarossa but was cancelled after encountering the T-34. After that unpleasant surprise, MAN and Daimler Benz each developed prototypes with sloped armor. The DB was patterned after the T-34 and was initially favored but got cancelled to due political in-fighting. See a thread I started on the subject a few months ago. That left the MAN vehicle, which became the OTL Panther. I believe a Czech company also submitted a design which featured an early autoloader, but not sure how practical an idea that would have been in the 1940s.
 

Ian_W

Banned
The Panzer IV.

It matched up just fine against the T-34 and Sherman.

What they needed was a lot more Panzer IVs, that were useful for what the Wehrmacht did well on the defense (short warning counter attacks) not lose-the-war-slower solutions that abandoned the German Army's strengths like the Tiger and the Panther.
 
I'd say the most suitable successor to the Panzer IV was the Panzer IV. With the long 75 it was a good tank, good enough to take on anything the Allies had throughout the war.
 
How about a derivative of Panther IV but with sloped armour and Panther's engine which is not overweight for the transmission (at least that is what i read).

Alternatively, Panther itself but with the originally planned (thinner) armour and normal road wheels (but them i'm reading that the interleaved configuration was almost universally adopted for german tracked armoured vehicles from the late 1930s, so there's that). If they could get a diesel engine for it perhaps that would be good too.
 
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Deleted member 1487

Depends on your perspective; there were two options on offer the VK3001H and the VK3002 MAN, which evolved into the Panther. I'm partial to the VK3002 with its original 60mm armor and lower weight than the Panther, but that with the Schamturm and without the interweaved road wheels.

The VK3001H had the benefit of being ready sooner and being an evolutionary design, not a revolutionary one like the Panther , but the downside of not having the improved armor, wider tracks, and variety of buffs learned from the T-34. It was a bigger Pz IV effectively, kind of like the M4 Sherman in terms of weight and size minus the sloped armor, but with the interweaved road wheels. With a turret ring widening and weight increase it could have taken the Panther's long 75mm gun and probably entered production with that in 1942. It had the advantage of not having the reliability problems the Panther, while being able to mount its gun, being ready earlier, and not being so different from the Pz IV that it would take as long to introduce and familiarize the troops with. But it wasn't as good as the Panther.

In the end then you have to weight the different factors for the circumstances; the Panther was the better tank with enough time to work out its issues, that is without question. The problem is that the Germans didn't have time to work that out and needed a better tank with a better gun; the VK3001H wasn't really that much better than the Pz IV, but it was better enough to justify the shift over to it IMHO due to its ability to mount the bigger gun with modifications and phase out the Pz IV. From a production standpoint the VK3001H would have been easier to transition to and mass produce than the Panther without the early teething issues and form a stop gap until the Panther could be perfected. As it was the German tankers toward the end of the war said what they really wanted was a reliable tank with a good long range gun that was mobile rather than a heavily armored, slow, unreliable slugger; post-war that philosophy resulted in the Leopard 1 without heavy armor and high mobility and reliability. I'd say that while the VK3001H wasn't the ideal tank from that standpoint, based on the war circumstances in hindsight that was probably the better way to go, but as I said that was only knowable with hindsight, as the Germans thought the war was going to be over in 1941-42 so they'd be able to get their next generation of tank ready after the war in the leisure of peacetime.

Another philosophy that I find hard to argue with though is one that has been expressed already on this thread, that the Pz IV was enough as it was. That is potentially an option too, as the Pz IV had stretch left in it and was good enough until 1944 once it had the L48 75mm gun. That topped out what the design could handle and it was pretty much at the brink of being overloaded at that point, but it was able to soldier on even with that. Waiting to introduce something like the Panther in 1944 and taking more time with the development of the design instead of rushing it is also a good option compared to OTL; it allows for focusing manufacturing resources on the Pz IV so that they could max out existing design production and get economies of scale, ensure enough spare parts, and that they always had enough to go around, even if it wasn't an ideal design by that point. Having a bunch more late model upgunned Pz IVs in 1942 and on would be better than the OTL choice of rushing the Panther into production; they tried to get the Panther in production initially in December 1942 and constant delays and technical issues meant the first 'working' Panthers weren't rolling off the assembly lines until Spring 1943. Had they instead used those production resources to build more Pz IVs they could have gotten increased production in Autumn 1942 rather than belated Panther production in Spring 1943. That would certainly have been a better choice and would have bought time for Panther development.

Of course none of that is going to change the outcome of the war, it would just help the German army drag out the war in the East, inflict more losses, keep theirs somewhat lower for a while, and be able to replace losses and keep up AFV strength better on all fronts.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
As far as I understood, the main "draw back" of the Panther tank was its suspension (interleaved wheels) and the complicated gearbox, becomming reliable only later on due to being rushed into production.

Something I haven't seen mentioned yet in this thread is the VK3001P for Porsche (see attachement). Ordered in 1939 it was extensivly tested in 1940/1941.
Specs intended
30 t (last version PV IV 25 t), superstructure and hull armor front 75 mm, side 60 mm, turret front 80 mm, side 60 mm
thougt of weapon : 7.5 cm L/24 (at first as Pz IV replacement) or 10.5 cm L/28

Later developed to VK4501P and at some point becomming the Sd Kfz 184 "Ferdinand" or maybe better known "Elephant" Heavy assault gun, but that's not the point here.

Its main problemes were not the suspension which worked very well on the later, much heavier VK4501P and Elephant" but the very unreliable Porsche-homemade motors. Even the problems at the beginning with the very new electric drive transmission could be ironed out in the process.

With a reliable motor, like the on the Elephant used Maybach, perhaps even with a gear drive instead of the electric transmission and sloped armor ...
Couldn't have been this an earlier, better maintainable alternative to the Panther (its suspension was completly newly contructed, no "know"/"available" parts) ?


vk3001p.jpg
 
How about a derivative of Panther IV but with sloped armour and Panther's engine which is not overweight for the transmission (at least that is what i read).

Alternatively, Panther itself but with the originally planned (thinner) armour and normal road wheels (but them i'm reading that the interleaved configuration was almost universally adopted for german tracked armoured vehicles from the late 1930s, so there's that). If they could get a diesel engine for it perhaps that would be good too.

There was a Panzer III/IV proposal that never got off the drawing board.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_III/IV
 
The T-43-like with German nuts & bolts - 35 tons, torsion bars suspension (keep it simple as on the said tanks), all-rear powerpack, starting gun 7,5 cm L/48, well armored, but retain the dedicated radio operator. Later upgraded with 8,8 cm L/56.
 
The VK3002DB always seemed to me like a viable replacement for the Panzer IV and III inventory. Even more so if follies like further production of the Tiger program are cancelled.

It was a pretty robust, and simple tank, influenced heavily by the T-34, that mounted the same armament as the Panther on a lighter and lower profile hull. Of course it's armour was much thinner, but better sloped. Being cheaper, and with higher availability rates due to a less insane power train design, it would probably have lead to far more of them being actually available for combat than their feline cousins.

The Panzer IV with continuous updates would probably have been a pretty viable option though, even if the hull was a bit weight and size constrained. Simply standardizing on a design that was already in production would have saved them a lot of headaches.

WWII Germany's inability to field a 30t medium tank when every other wartime power (including Italy and Japan) managed to do so has always perplexed me.
 
I'd say the most suitable successor to the Panzer IV was the Panzer IV. With the long 75 it was a good tank, good enough to take on anything the Allies had throughout the war.
Agreed, just adjust the design to make more of them faster, and cheaper - with sloped armour like the below once the competition shows its benefits.

260sz0n.jpg


And stop production of the Panzer III in the late 1930s - move production to the Panzer IV.
 

Deleted member 1487

And make more of them.....

This is a German tank factory in 1940...

This is an American tank factory...
Part of the problem there is the US wasn't under the threat of aerial bombardment and had a larger machine tool industry enabling them to make vast factories with huge machinery to save labor and materials, but had huge electrical thirst. Germany just wasn't able to do what the US was in terms of making assembly line mass production viable for war materials. When they tried the factories generally didn't get operational fully and got bombarded by USAAF bombers (Niebelungenwerk)
 
Part of the problem there is the US wasn't under the threat of aerial bombardment and had a larger machine tool industry enabling them to make vast factories with huge machinery to save labor and materials, but had huge electrical thirst. Germany just wasn't able to do what the US was in terms of making assembly line mass production viable for war materials. When they tried the factories generally didn't get operational fully and got bombarded by USAAF bombers (Niebelungenwerk)
All perfectly valid points, meaning Germany's successor to the Panzer IV needs to be fast, easy and cheap to produce, operate and maintain.

Ideally, you want a MBT chassis that can also be used for IFVs, ARVs and gun tractors. I return to the sloped Panzer IV https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=245632&page=3
 
Germany was more developed industrial nation then the Soviet Union, yet SU outproduced Germany even before 1944 (before bombing took the dent in German production) in tanks, guns and aircraft. Was also forced to relocate a good part of their industry, not good for production numbers.
One of German problems was opting to design & produce way too heavy, complicated and expensive tanks - Tiger I & II, Panther. Dispense with 'rear engine, front drive' layout (eats into volume, and hence in weight, and hence in armor; adds to production time & effort), ditto with compicated suspension system.
Going out with 45 ton tank (= size & weight of a heavy tank) that fires 6 kg HE shell and has armor as other people's 32 ton stuff??? Give me a break.
 
In order to beat an opponent who has a great quantitative advantage, overwhelming productive superiority, and comparable military efficiency and political resolve, you absolutely must have substantially better weapons.

Germany's adoption of the Panther and Tiger must be viewed in this context. If the Germans insisted on fighting with inferior numbers of equally-powerful, equally-reliable, equally inexpensive tanks, then Germany will lose. Period. And no matter how inexpensive, reliable or easy to produce a simpler design mightve been, they would never be able to achieve even quantitative parity.

Germany didn't want to lose. They recognized that they could never outproduce and outnumber their enemies, so they needed to adopt superior gear.

Their efforts to do so, however, must be limited by the current state of technology and metallurgy, the contemporary state of design experience, sharply limited access to resources, and an ever-deteriorating economic/industrial environment.

The Panther and/or Tiger (or some other design) would inevitably suffer some sort of handicaps due to these issues; as it turned out, the Germans didn't even do as well as they might have under the circumstances. But they HAD to attempt a fairly-radical qualitative solution. Not making the attempt would simply be accepting defeat.

Might as well tell the British and Egyptians to throw away their rifles, artillery and Maxim guns and march to Omdurman with 35,000 cheap, reliable, easy to produce spearmen...
 
In order to beat an opponent who has a great quantitative advantage, overwhelming productive superiority, and comparable military efficiency and political resolve, you absolutely must have substantially better weapons.
That's certainly the NATO model during the Cold War, where they relied on superior kit vs. massive WARSAW Pact forces.

However, the Germans never brought forward a qualitative advantage, especially when on the offensive, where their tanks and aircraft were at best equal to the enemy. They were still using the PzIV and Bf-109 from pre-1939 in most frontline units right to 1945.
 
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