Most plausible Europe after a Napoleonic victory?
- Thread starter Neoteros
- Start date
Why is debating the morality of Napoleon's wars so important to figuring out what a successful Napoleon does to Europe's borders?
Yes and no. You'll need still some buffer states in Germany to secure the Rhine border, and probably Northern Italy as well in order to be safe about Austria and Mediterranea. Let's say annex Genoa would be a good point, and preserve Cisalpine Republic would be needed.
Because the British historical position was for decennials : "Napoléon was a megalomaniac midget, and it was so bitter about this that he wanted to annoy everybody by changing everything".
EVen if it's not the case anymore, this is was so widespread it became an historical cliché.
Faeelin
Banned
I agree with this, and I would also observe that what kind of state Napoleon leaves behind depends on your view of him. I would expect him to lessen up on censorship and give more power to the French legislature as he gets older, but this is mostly based on my reading of the man's vanity and desire to be remembered fondly in history. I could also see Napoleonic Europe being a bit of a barracks state, with secret police everywhere.
Did you read the "St.Helena Testimony"? Maybe it would help you to understand the character, or at least what he wanted to be remembered for.
Ok, so we have a France with boarders in the Pyrenees, the Rhine and Genoa / Milan (the modern A7 - sorry couldn't see a suitable river to mark the border) and the year is 1802.
What happens next?
Does Napoleon become Emporer as he did in OTL? This will hardly reassure the leaders of the surrounding countries.
Does Britain and France just take the war elsewhere as with the Seven Year War, fighting for colonies rather than in Europe? Again this will not help settle nerves in Europe.
Does Napoleon remain content to rule just France and everyone lives happily ever after? Has this ever happened in OTL?
What happens next?
Does Napoleon become Emporer as he did in OTL? This will hardly reassure the leaders of the surrounding countries.
Does Britain and France just take the war elsewhere as with the Seven Year War, fighting for colonies rather than in Europe? Again this will not help settle nerves in Europe.
Does Napoleon remain content to rule just France and everyone lives happily ever after? Has this ever happened in OTL?
Depends. France do have some buffer states? The ideal situation would be the reversal of 1814 with Netherlands, Southern Germany and Northern Italy sattellized.
If you have such...MAYBE you could have some little peace. Until UK decides an "exaggerated power of France" threaten european's balance.
Pick your choice : building of a Navy, France messing too much about Italian harbours, protectionist economy of France that close the market to british industry.
Maybe a bit of political issues in UK, if possible with roots in social contestation could delay all of this enough tor each a time where UK tolerate a powerful France this close.
In the East...The better is to have Prussia being opposed to Austria. Whatever you reach that, it should neutralize them for some time.
Actually, it could does. A emperor at the head of France is slightly less worrying than a bunch of revolutionnaries.
At this moment, France don't have a Navy worth of mention to fight elsewhere than continent.
The question is, "Are the other powers able to stand the existence of a quite powerful France in Europe with an huge influence within their kingdoms/empires whom the values are opposites to their own principles of divine-right and absolutism?"
It's not about Napoléon being power-hungry (even if it was an issue, not politically but more strategically : incapacity to delegate powers efficiently), it's about others tolerating a Revolutionary France.
Make me wonder about Belgium.. what Napoleon would have done with Waloonia and Flanders? Because I heard it,s creation was tied to Napoleon's adventures, and so the need of creating a sorta neutral, buffer state...
Flanders : Most probably using them as an naval base. Both for trade and for military seafare.
Something like an huge "Napoléonville". But bigger.
Wallonia...Ardennes are a rather good strategic protection.
Maybe the beggining of industrial revolution in Wallonia could elad Napoléon to take more seriously all of this...But I doubt.
Wallonia to his augmented France, Flanders to a 'Batavian Republic'?
Too close from England to be just given to someone else, I would think. Better to keep the Rhine border, furthermore, as a border as actual one would be...rather undefensible.
Ah yes, Spain, where he deposed the government of one of his own allies in order to place one of his brothers on the throne...
Britain was basically willing to accept & abide by the Treaty of Amiens, apart from some understandable reluctance about handing Malta back to the Knights when it was fairly obvious that as Napoleon envsiaged it those would really be only a French puppet, but Napoleon acted in bad faith with regard to Italy, Switzerland and the Netherlands [all] during the relatively brief period for which the Treaty remained in force and thus provoked Britain into its next declaration of war.
And when Napoleon formed his alliance with Alexander there's documented evidence that he (Napoleon) proposed they should then work together to carve up not only the Ottoman Empire but British India as well... which seems to support the "unwilling to stop" argument, no?
'various Indian States'... which France was stirring up against us, and to at least some of which French military advisers had been supplied.
'the United States'.. which started that war.
'Spain'... when it changed sides and allied with Napoleon.
'the Netherlands'... French puppet-regime therein.
'Russia', 'Denmark'... Okay, I'll concede that the 'Armed Neutrality of the North' didn't actually start a war with us, but we wouldn't have felt pressed to take action against them if their actions hadn't seemed a threat to our defence against the French.
'the Ottoman Empire'... Are you talking about how we helped the Ottomans repel the French at Acre? Or the invasion of Egypt to defeat the French forces there? We certainly didn't fight any significant operations anywhere else in their territories at that time...
Leaving aside the fact that Malaya isn't a "subcontinent"... Eh? No. check your facts. We temporarily occupied the nearby islands of Java and Sumatra (parts of them anyway) which were Dutch colonies, when the Netherlands had been taken-over by France, but a serious British presence in Malaya itself didn't begin until later on.
Spanish colonies, attacked while Spain was allied to Napoleon...
Because the French had already done so and we felt it advisable to push them out.
Last edited:
That had already been done: Napoleon was as absolutist as anybody...
Written after he'd lost? Who's to say that he'd really have felt the same way if he'd won?
It's probably why almost all the Republican (as well the French) supported him in 1815, because he was so absolutist that they preferred him to this poor liberal Louis XVIII
Nobody, but as we don't have any AH library with the book Napoleon would have written, and only the one we have in the current reality, still better than nothing.
And if you're a Jew, between being a citizen or cloistred in a gettho hoping the next pogrom would strike only later is not really a hard choice to make.
Napoleon timelines usually seem to be excessively based on the borders he set up during the war. To me, this seems very unlikely. The Emperor seemed extremely willing to draw and redraw borders with developments. Once he has eliminated all military threats, I imagine he would redraw them again not based on wartime contingencies. I imagine the most likely would be an expanded France to the Rhine and the Alps, probably the Pyrenees to the South, but maybe the Iberian Mountains if he wants Barcelona. Then I imagine there would be consolidated satellite states that are small enough to be easily walked over when necessary, but large enough he doesn't have to deal with too many of them. I imagine Spain, Prussia and Austria would be carved down to size, while many of the German principalities would be enlarged. He might want larger states in the East though, who are capable of containing Russia.
Congratulations, you've just joined the Army whether or not you actually wanted to do so: We're off to invade Russia, won't that be fun?
I'll choose Britain, myself: Okay, so there's the navy's press gang to worry about, but that takes a lower proportion of the men than French/Austrian/Prussian military conscription does; it's certainly more liberal than Austria, Prussia or Russia, and Parliament -- although not yet fully democratic, I admit -- has more real authority relative to the monarchy than does the legislature of Napoleonic France; and the place doesn't get fought over, either...