Most Likely Fascist Leader of Germany

Wolfpaw

Banned
Inspired by the WI: Mussolini - style Fascist Germany? thread, I was wondering who would most likely become the dictator of a Germany that went fascist rather than national socialist.

Let's assume Hitler's been butterflied away; World War I tends to be useful in that regard.

Röhm probably couldn't pull it off (long-term, anyhow) since his homosexuality is more than enough to wreck him. So I was thinking maybe somebody like Emil Maurice, Franz Pfeffer von Salomon, or Franz Seldte. I'd also put my money on all but one of the aforementioned fellows meeting rather nasty ends.

As a side note, I could see Otto Wagener serving as a sort of Alberto Rocco.

Anyways, what do you guys think? Who would most likely be Germany's fascist
[FONT=&quot]Führer?[/FONT]
 
Röhm was very much a national socialist so he's he's out at the start um Franz von Papen is my pick for a more Estado Novo kind of thing...
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Well, because of the whole "stabbed in the back" theory, you don't have a discredited German Army, and you certainly don't have a shortage of generals who might be interested in setting themselves up as dictator.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Kurt Von Schleicher and Franz Von Papen come to mind.
Eh. I'd classify Schleicher as an authoritarian rather than a fascist. Papen was a weaselly little opportunist who could probably worm his way into a cabinet or whatever this Germany's version of the Grand Council of Fascism is (if there even is one). Neither are "fascist dictator" material. Papen, for example, is far more evocative of somebody like Dino Grandi, only much slimier.

When I say "fascist" I mean Blackshirt/Brownshirt type fascists: Parades, torchlit rallies, general thuggery, syndicalism or corporatism; all that jazz, or at least most of it.

That's why I pictured a strongman like
Röhm or someone like that taking charge.
 
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Wolfpaw

Banned
Well, because of the whole "stabbed in the back" theory, you don't have a discredited German Army, and you certainly don't have a shortage of generals who might be interested in setting themselves up as dictator.
Indeed? It was always my understanding that the SA were perhaps the most vehement proponents of the Dolchstosslegende. They (and other fascist/fascistic groups) were immensely hostile towards a military they resented as being run by a bunch of cowardly armchair generals who were only given commands due to their being of high birth. We ought to remember that it was the SA and its leaders that pushed for a purge of the military and subjugating it to the Brownshirts.

The Nazis, on the other hand, began to cut down on the criticism of the army as it evolved from a Bavarian fascist movement into a national socialist movement trying to ingratiate itself to the military and other powers that be. The Nazis decided to shift blame away from the military and focus more on Jews, Marxists, and pacifists, whereas the SA kept up its anti-General Staff tirade until 1934.

Anyways, do you have any ideas for which general had the most potential to be a fascist (not just authoritarian) dictator? I've only ever found that a comfortable majority of Germany's generals were uneasy with national socialism and absolutely repulsed by fascism at best.
 
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Kapp Putch

Maybe the Kapp putch some how succeeds because the general strike doesnt happen. Assuming Kapp stays in power he would likely eventually renounce the Versailes treaty, but wether he secretly rearms or publically anounces his intentions wwill be different from Hitlers stragety. Wether Kapp would restore the Hohenzollerns is a question I am not sure about. But whoever is the leader is they need the support of the big industries (especially Krupp)

Anyone who wants to learn about krupp should read- The Arms of Krupp the rise and fall of the industrial dynasty that armed Germany at war) IT IS AN AWSOME BOOK!!
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
I dunno. I trouble seeing folks like L[FONT=&quot]üttwitz[/FONT] or Kapp or any of these other establishment-types as fascist. They were more just reactionary authoritarians who represented the old order.

I mean, I consider fascists to be those embittered middle-class brawlers like the Blackshirts, or the Iron Guard, or the Falangists, or the SA, etc.
 
Erich Ludendorff.

He is a possibility but I'm not sure how great his pull was with ordinary people?

Hugenberg was leader of the Nationalists, to whom several who later became prominent Nazis, were at first affiliated.

Goering could be a good bet - if you've completely butterflied away Hitler, then its a fair bet Goering doesn't get shot in the leg in Munich, and doesn't get addicted to morphine in the first place. He combined geniality with ruthlessness, and was seen with favour by Britain and the industrialists, by the aristocracy and by the party machine, at different points

How about one of the Streicher brothers?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
He is a possibility but I'm not sure how great his pull was with ordinary people?

The Nazis had him as their public face early on. I don't see why his pull shouldn't equal Hindenburg's.

There's an idea. Get Hindenburg assassinated by a communist and Ludendorff can use the opportunity to seize power. Maybe have him spend some years in China with the KMT so he can come back after the assassination and present himself as an alternative to all the other right-wingers who've made too many enemies up till then.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
I suppose I could see Göring pulling it off; he had that sort of fascist appeal, but he may be seen as too cozy to the establishment to be top dog. That being said, I can definitely see him as Foreign Minister since he is palatable to nations that a fascist Germany would otherwise loathe: Britain, France, the other Versailles powers, etc.

Ludendorff I could see maybe being a figurehead for a bit, but he shared that same dislike of fascism that the rest of the Junkers and military men had; he originally saw the Nazis (who he had a falling out with and had, by 1925, begun turning away from fascism) as just a hardcore v
ölkisch conservative group.

Besides, he wasn't all that popular in Germany after the war except with the far-right.
 
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I suppose I could see Göring pulling it off; he had that sort of fascist appeal, but he may be seen as too cozy to the establishment to be top dog. That being said, I can definitely see him as Foreign Minister since he is palatable to nations that a fascist Germany would otherwise loathe: Britain, France, the other Versailles powers, etc.

Ludendorff I could see maybe being a figurehead for a bit, but he shared that same dislike of fascism that the rest of the Junkers and military men had; he originally saw the Nazis (who he had a falling out with and had, by 1925, begun turning away from fascism) as just a hardcore conservative group.

Besides, he wasn't all that popular in Germany after the war except with the far-right.

Considering that Ludendoff and his second wife dabbled in all sorts of occultism and conspiracy the thories, if he ever got to power, we might see all sorts of anti-christian (especialliy anti-catholic) actions, perhaps the German Faith Movement gains more traction.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Considering that Ludendoff and his second wife dabbled in all sorts of occultism and conspiracy the thories, if he ever got to power, we might see all sorts of anti-christian (especialliy anti-catholic) actions, perhaps the German Faith Movement gains more traction.
I dunno; military dictators usually have a hard go of it if they start messing with religion, that's only stuff that a Party or a Movement can pull of successfully, not a bunch of putschists. Also, the occult thing places Ludendorff closer to Nazism than fascism since national socialism is a neopagan movement with regards to religion. And even then it's not like occultism met with very much success in Germany outside the SS.

European fascism, on the other hand, has never been anti-Christian, at least not in any significant sense. In every instance of a fascist government taking power, organized religion was almost always the very first power that they came to an understanding with and sunk its claws into. The same goes for national socialism.

Ludendorff's conspiracy theories weren't really anything new either. "All of our troubles are caused by those damned Jews and Free Masons and Marxists and pacifists and gays and parliamentarians, etc., etc." was pretty standard for the far-right in Europe.
 
I like the idea if Goering as leader of a German Fascist Party and eventually Germany's Mussolini (HG strutting corpulently!). Apart from policies he was a WW1 hero while not being tainted with any possible antipathy towards the War Generals - though if the latter feeling was widespread it didn't seem to harm Hindenburg's public image.

For quite a while Britain & France clung to the idea that Mussolini's Italy could be not such a bad thing. Perhaps they might view Goering's Germany similarly, bulwark against the Reds etc. But would HG want to launch a war on the USSR, even with the backing of Italy and tacit support of Britain & France?
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
So Göring seems to be the most likely. That being said, I see him as more of a Balbo figure than a German Mussolini. Let's assume that Göring and his Brownshirts take power in a putsch (similar to the March on Rome or the April riots in France) in the wake of Hindenburg's 1934 death. What would a German fascist regime look like?

I don't see things being quite so bad for the Jews. Harassment, discrimination, disenfranchisement, seizure of property, and vandalism would probably be the norm. Beatings and perhaps the odd murder, maybe even outright pogroms occur, but I very much doubt that we'll see anything along the lines of the Final Solution. Concentration camps and institutionalized ghettos, however, would not surprise me at all.

The economy would be interesting. I could see the same basic plan that the Nazis followed being implemented under
Göring; he did run the 4 year plan, after all.

The military is going to be dicey since
Göring's friendly with the establishment on one hand, but is supported by fascists on the other. While there wouldn't necessarily be an outright purge, I could see a lot of Junkers getting sidelined in favor of Brownshirt cronies.

With regards to war...hrmm. I never really got the idea that
Göring bought into the whole pan-Germanism thing, so we might not see the Sudetenland issue getting all that big; Göring would most likely not make as big a stink about it as Hitler did and may even tell the Sudeten Germans to shut up and settle for autonomy. Austria will probably get absorbed, though.

Göring was actually very much opposed to going to war with the Soviet Union, so that probably won't happen. He could probably get Poland if he ingratiates himself with France and Britain (not too hard) and assures that that Germany can be better counted on to ward the Soviet frontier rather than those brutish Poles. Besides, it takes care of the gigantic European toothache that was the Danzig issue.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
fascism-799165.jpg

Fascism Bump! :p
 
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