Also you need geographical barriers to nomad invasions so any tribe that settles isn't destroyed or pushed out after a time. mountains, and deserts work wonders for these. Which is why egypt, sumer, indus, and china were the first.
Most likely earlier Cradle of Civilization?
- Thread starter PoeFacedKilla
- Start date
I don't know if nomadic tribes were an issue for these earlier civilizations. What they'd have to deal with would be bands of pedestrian hunter gatherers, not cavalry armies. Not saying that's nothing in the neolithic, but nomad invasions tend to go smoother when the nomads have something to ride.
domoviye said:
Source? I am a little skeptical, but I also hope that you're right because I'm a fan of alternate domesticates timelines and if this is true, that makes the suspension of disbelief for an EAC domesticate much lower.
Actually, I like the idea of the wetter Sahara. You'd get a lot of rivers, probably with fertile soil immediatly surrounding it, some lakes, maybe a really large one. And then some highlands and areas of poor soil keeping the peoples separate. The mix of domesticates would probably be very similar to the fertile crescent.
You could have a lot of competing river valley civilizations there.
You don't want to separate the people. You want them well mixed so that ideas can freely flow. If not you get the situation of the Americas where potential draft animals are in a different area to the inventors of the wheel and the two are not talking to each other.
Kaiphranos
Donor
And then, as the region starts to dry out, a diaspora spreading the various crops and technologies...
This isn't the best source, but the only link I have to the older more detailed one is on my old broken computer. I may be able to find it in the next week or so.
Here is a rewrite of the stuff I read several years ago. The original article said, a few hundred years before maize was introduced. Unfortunately this article doesn't go into as much detail.
This is the important part.
Are capybaras viable as beasts of burden? If so, they could make the Rio de la Plata a cradle.
1. What crops?
2. The Saharan pluvial was largley without organized agriculture. We have knowledge of trading, herding, and the Garamantes had chariots. Beyond them(note that their zenith was after the Saharan pluvial; they benefited from aquifers that had been formed when the water receded underground.
3. There is no way to prevent the end of the Saharan pluvial, as it is caused by oscillations in the monsoon, which is a natural cycle and cannot be altered under short-term geographical circumstances. The end of the Pluvial would destroy any culture, as it was a more sudden, few hundred year thing, not a long recession that would allow cultures to retreat slowly north and south.
The end of the Saharan pluvial forestalled the development of the Sahel as a center of civilization.
Not really, they might be able to carry small packs, but they're basically more agreeable pigs.
Kaiphranos
Donor
The original question was about earlier Cradles of Civilization; my thought was that perhaps organized agriculture could develop in the region prior to the end of the Saharan pluvial. I admit, I don't know what crops would be available--though this Wikipedia article (I know, I know...) seems to suggest that there might have been some minimal grain-based agriculture there already. The sudden end of the pluvial would be a disaster for the core regions, but some groups on what would have been the fringes, either in the Sahel or along the Mediterranean might have had a chance.
So, I agree, it's not ideal for a "cradle," and I don't know if the information exists to flesh out much of a scenario, but we do have about two thousand years to work with, contemporaneous with some of the earliest settlement sites in the Fertile Crescent like Jericho.
A bit of research came up with this beast. A vegetarian, bison-sized rodent which lived in Rio de la Plata and just might make the place into a cradle of civilization. I have to wonder whether or not it would be domesticable, and it would have to survive the Holocene extinctions, but a timeline centering on J. Monesi would be a great read.
The region shares an east-west axis with the fertile crescent etc.
This is why it is called an alternate scenario.
Well...the latest reseach seems to indicate that current output of greenhouse gases is putting off the resumption of Ice Age conditions. And they are dependent on some very large cycles in the earths orbit.
An earlier cradle of civilization in the Saharas might lead to sufficient changes in micro- and macroclimate for the Sahara to remain wet. All those cascading feedback systems could concivably lead to other metastable equilibria.
Morty Vicar
Banned
It doesn't happen overnight, people basically adapt or move on. When they move on interesting things occur, their culture is spread, even if they themselves were entirely wiped out some influences remain.
You know, even if the Sahara does dry out on schedule, as I remember, that was a 300-years change. Fast enough for any ancient civilzations to see, but not fast enogh to cope with. We would probably see outward migrations, but if some of the places were prone to megaconstructions, like Egypt...
We could see failed attempts at shoring up their civilzation by cyclopean irrigation channels and vast artificial reservoirs. In the end we would get a Sahara dotted with where the dead winds slowly shift sands over immense works by nations that were dust and forgotten before Egypt rose.
Most of the Sahara is a stone desert rather than a sandy one, I think. It is sort of like an image from Burroughs Mars.
We could see failed attempts at shoring up their civilzation by cyclopean irrigation channels and vast artificial reservoirs. In the end we would get a Sahara dotted with where the dead winds slowly shift sands over immense works by nations that were dust and forgotten before Egypt rose.
Most of the Sahara is a stone desert rather than a sandy one, I think. It is sort of like an image from Burroughs Mars.
I don't think so. Apart from the polar regions Burrough's Mars was covered in a ubiquitous moss