Yes that i think the us would have been in a more trickier situation in the early 20th century
I've actually thought alot about that! I had the idea of a surviving Stuart Britain imposing military governors (like Caudillos) on the Colonies, who eventually rebel and found an oligarchic republic dominated by military strongmen and plagued by instability.
As for the Most interesting scenario, I always think of 1of 2:
1. A very early US Civil War over the Constitution being too Hamiltonian. Sort of poisons the Union from the start.
2. The US rejecting the Treaty of Ghent and continue fighting the War of 1812, probably to disastrous consequences.
I am also quite fond of any "historical Loser wins the war, loses the peace" scenario, since much of the time Alternate History ignores everything after the War.
In the vein of "losing the peace", another idea I've loved is an alt American Revolution where the US is smaller due to losing more battles. They win their independence, but are more or less confined to the East coast and hemmed in by the British in the north, south, and west.
The American Revolution fails, with many of its leaders fleeing to France, while the French Revolution is not only successful, but even spreads (or is exported) across Europe, which results in much of the European aristocracy (including King George) fleeing to British North America or Latin America (the latter for Spanish/Portuguese nobles). You‘d thus have the Old World ruled by new, revolutionary elites (including some of the former American revolutionaries), while the New World is governed by Europe‘s old aristocracy. That would certainly be a poetic state of affairs.
Even better if Napoleon still rises to power to restore order after years of revolutionary chaos, but this time – since the revolution was successfully exported across the European continent – not merely as ruler of France, but as the Emperor of Europe. Since the old ruling dynasties of Europe are out of power, it‘s doubtful that any of the OTL coalitions against Napoleon would ever form, so there wouldn‘t be much resistance against him doing whatever the hell he wants.
Even better if Napoleon still rises to power to restore order after years of revolutionary chaos, but this time – since the revolution was successfully exported across the European continent – not merely as ruler of France, but as the Emperor of Europe. Since the old ruling dynasties of Europe are out of power, it‘s doubtful that any of the OTL coalitions against Napoleon would ever form, so there wouldn‘t be much resistance against him doing whatever the hell he wants.
Syrian-Egyptian Gnosticism overtakes nicean Christianity has the majority religion of the Roman empire.
Neoplatonism becomes the majority religion of the Roman empire.
Neoplatonism becomes the majority religion of the Roman empire.
It certainly is.ASB is thrown at everything too lightly.
The way you say that sounds poetic though I'm not sure all that would happen in one timeline. I'm also a fan of worlds with alternate Great Divergences.
The Balance of Power would have a word with you
- Anglo-Norwegian Union, or otherwise surviving Empire of the North Sea
- Celtic Empires centered on Southern Gaul
- Prussia forming a colonial Empire early
- alternatively, less german-wanking is also cool
- Spanish East Asia or Spanish Africa
I’m not sure mine are that interesting but I’ll throw a couple of mine out there.
1. A less Islamic Middle East. I have no issue with Islam at all, but there were so many different religions in the area that got crushed out of existence completely or made into tiny minorities over the centuries. I’d like to see what those cultures would have developed into and what kind of art they would have contributed to the world. Almost every timeline I see with weaker Islam is focused more on the Byzantines Flourishing. Which I like as well but isn’t the one I ponder about regularly.
2. The U.S. takes more from Mexico in the war. This is less for land grabbing reasons and more because I’m curious how the United States would develop with a larger hispanophone population earlier on. Does it become more accepting as time goes on or does it turn into something worse than OTL.
3. John Lackland dies before he gets anywhere near the throne. Does Arthur of Brittany and a Regency Council do any better than him when in control? I don’t know but I’d love to find out.
1. A less Islamic Middle East. I have no issue with Islam at all, but there were so many different religions in the area that got crushed out of existence completely or made into tiny minorities over the centuries. I’d like to see what those cultures would have developed into and what kind of art they would have contributed to the world. Almost every timeline I see with weaker Islam is focused more on the Byzantines Flourishing. Which I like as well but isn’t the one I ponder about regularly.
2. The U.S. takes more from Mexico in the war. This is less for land grabbing reasons and more because I’m curious how the United States would develop with a larger hispanophone population earlier on. Does it become more accepting as time goes on or does it turn into something worse than OTL.
3. John Lackland dies before he gets anywhere near the throne. Does Arthur of Brittany and a Regency Council do any better than him when in control? I don’t know but I’d love to find out.
No, not unless Arthur is a genius. The Plantagenet domains if consolidated posed too large a threat to the French crown, and Philip was too competent/pragmatic not to take advantage of tje regency. They might do a bit better (ala Anjou or smth beinh kept), but the end result is likely the same.
Here are some of my favs:
1) Buddhist Europe
Bactrian monks are sent back to their homeland in Greece and other Middle Eastern/European lands, turning them buddhist. I always find it interesting since much of western culture is based off of Christianity and replacing it with a very different religion changes culture drastically. I also love the idea of Greek Temples becoming monasteries.
2) Indian Invasion of Arabia/Southeast Asia or East Africa
India is in a great spot in the Indian Ocean, so it saddens me to see that only once they utilized it. An Indian Empire stretching from Persia to Africa and Indonesia could easily be one of the grandest empires in the world.
3) Surviving Armenian Empire
Probably the least likely of the list, a surviving Armenian Empire which serves as a buffer between Rome and Persia and shapes Middle Eastern history and language would be really cool.
4) Carthage Wins Punic Wars
I love this one since Carthage was a merchant empire unlike Rome and it would completely change Europe as we know it.
1) Buddhist Europe
Bactrian monks are sent back to their homeland in Greece and other Middle Eastern/European lands, turning them buddhist. I always find it interesting since much of western culture is based off of Christianity and replacing it with a very different religion changes culture drastically. I also love the idea of Greek Temples becoming monasteries.
2) Indian Invasion of Arabia/Southeast Asia or East Africa
India is in a great spot in the Indian Ocean, so it saddens me to see that only once they utilized it. An Indian Empire stretching from Persia to Africa and Indonesia could easily be one of the grandest empires in the world.
3) Surviving Armenian Empire
Probably the least likely of the list, a surviving Armenian Empire which serves as a buffer between Rome and Persia and shapes Middle Eastern history and language would be really cool.
4) Carthage Wins Punic Wars
I love this one since Carthage was a merchant empire unlike Rome and it would completely change Europe as we know it.
I agree that’s definitely the most likely outcome. But Like you said I wonder if it wouldn’t be quite so complete a dismantling of the Angevin Empire if someone just a bit better was in charge. I’m also curious if we get anythIng close to the Magna Carta without him
What about the Battle of Regensburg as your POD?In all seriousness though (Mongol Britain doesn't count
Trying to figure out exactly what the succession would be for France, Holland, Westphalia, Berg, etc though is a rather nasty rabbit-hole to go down 😖
As far as successions go, they are easier than you think, at least initially.
Joseph gets France
Spain is evacuated, and Lucien's daughter Charlotte may marry Ferdinand.
Westphalia, if they can hold it, stays with Jerome.
OTL Nappy III gets Berg until/unless Joseph does not have a son. In that case, Nappy III might be in line for Holland too as his older brother gets France and, presumably, the hand of Joseph's oldest daughter.
Eugene de Beauharnais and his descendants get the Kingdom of Italy.
Murat and his descendants keep Naples if they can.
Reach out to @isabella for her thoughts on this too.
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My personal favorite scenarios are:
Surviving centralized Celtic state: The Gaulish tribes manage to form a long-lasting strong state, and Celtic language and culture stay dominant in Western Europe.
Rome sort-of-screw: The Roman Republic loses the Punic Wars and ends up so weakened that it never manages to expand past the Italic Peninsula and the Italian islands. At the same time, it never has to deal with the same problems that came from expansion, so the Republic lasts longer than it did OTL.
No Qin Dynasty: China is never unified and stays as several separate kingdoms. The Hundred Schools are never purged, and chinese culture and philosophy isn't dominated by Confucianism and Legalism.
Buddhist Europe: Buddhist monks from India or Central Asia travel east and spread buddhism to Europe around the 3rd or 2nd Centuries BC. Religion in Europe, the Near East and North Africa is a mix of local polytheism, Buddhism and Greek philosophies and cults.
Early American Discovery: Sailors from the Old World reach the Americas as early as possible, introducing diseases and livestock, but colonization isn't possible, so America has more time to bounce back from Old World diseases and adopt livestock and other technology.
Surviving centralized Celtic state: The Gaulish tribes manage to form a long-lasting strong state, and Celtic language and culture stay dominant in Western Europe.
Rome sort-of-screw: The Roman Republic loses the Punic Wars and ends up so weakened that it never manages to expand past the Italic Peninsula and the Italian islands. At the same time, it never has to deal with the same problems that came from expansion, so the Republic lasts longer than it did OTL.
No Qin Dynasty: China is never unified and stays as several separate kingdoms. The Hundred Schools are never purged, and chinese culture and philosophy isn't dominated by Confucianism and Legalism.
Buddhist Europe: Buddhist monks from India or Central Asia travel east and spread buddhism to Europe around the 3rd or 2nd Centuries BC. Religion in Europe, the Near East and North Africa is a mix of local polytheism, Buddhism and Greek philosophies and cults.
Early American Discovery: Sailors from the Old World reach the Americas as early as possible, introducing diseases and livestock, but colonization isn't possible, so America has more time to bounce back from Old World diseases and adopt livestock and other technology.
As a Colombian my main interest is in Latin American history so here are a few:
The Communers rebellion succeeds and its aftermath.
Santander become the main figure and not Bolivar, which would probably mean a more lasting Gran Colombia.
In Europe I have always been fascinated with the idea of early Italian unification with the help of Leonardo da Vinci, what would it look like? How would it develop?
And lastly again in the Americas, a united country with all of the ex Spanish colonies, how would this beast of a country behave? When would it become a superpower? Would the US still be a great power?
The Communers rebellion succeeds and its aftermath.
Santander become the main figure and not Bolivar, which would probably mean a more lasting Gran Colombia.
In Europe I have always been fascinated with the idea of early Italian unification with the help of Leonardo da Vinci, what would it look like? How would it develop?
And lastly again in the Americas, a united country with all of the ex Spanish colonies, how would this beast of a country behave? When would it become a superpower? Would the US still be a great power?
1) American Civil War: where the Confederates win but is forced to evolve into something less objectionable or reconstruction where the lost cause is butterflied. I hate the revenge fantasy option.
2) Rome sort of Screw: Preferably something with Carthage or Gaul doing better.
3) North European evolutions with less direct Classical/Christian influence: This includes everything from Saxons stop Charlamagne to Norse Vinland where they hybridize with NAs or Vercengetrix kills dear Julius.
2) Rome sort of Screw: Preferably something with Carthage or Gaul doing better.
3) North European evolutions with less direct Classical/Christian influence: This includes everything from Saxons stop Charlamagne to Norse Vinland where they hybridize with NAs or Vercengetrix kills dear Julius.
- An early implementation of the Greek Plan by Catherine the Great results in the partition of Ottoman Europe between the Habsburgs (who take over the Yugoslav lands), Venice (whose maritime holdings expand to include Morea, Crete, and Cyprus), and the Russian puppet states of Dacia and the "Neobyzantine Empire."
- Roman Britain never falls to Anglo-Saxon invaders and instead transitions into a Romance-speaking nation with closer cultural ties to Western Europe.
- Native American polities like the Northwestern Confederacy and the Cherokee Nation either survive as independent nations or are incorporated into the United States without being ethnically cleansed. (Kind of also implies a US-screw, which is interesting for its own reasons.)
- Gran Colombia, La Plata, and Centroamerica avoid the separatist uprisings which resulted in the breakaway of nations like Venezuela, Uruguay, etc. This results in a Latin America with more continuous economic development and political stability that is able to negotiate with the powers of the Global North on a more equal playing field rather than being dominated by them as in OTL. (I'd also group a Greater Mexico in with this, although I feel like that's different enough to count as its own scenario.)
- The Meiji Restoration fails and Japan remains a Shogunate. Whether this prevents them from modernizing or not, the different political situation is interesting regardless.
- More indigenous nations like the Kingdoms of Hawai'i and Imerina avoid getting snapped up during the age of imperialism and retain their independence (with or without their monarchies) to the present day.
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Regensburg is a possibility... was that the only time Nap was (mildly) wounded-in-action? I was thinking just a little bit later than that though.
As to the successions, largely agree:
Joseph gets France Yes, assuming that L'Aiglon is just in poor health and dies roughly as IOTL, without issue - or alternately the marriage to Marie Louise never occurs to begin with.
Spain is evacuated (Yes) and Lucien's daughter Charlotte may marry Ferdinand. Not sure if this is possible - Nap's relations with Lucien were a bit... strained. She might would make a better Grand Duchess of Wurzburg. Would like to see Lucien, or at least his descendants, restored to the dynastic line though.
Westphalia, if they can hold it, stays with Jerome. Yes, but possibly with some border revisions to keep the peace, esp. with Prussia
OTL Nappy III gets Berg until/unless Joseph does not have a son. In that case, Nappy III might be in line for Holland too as his older brother gets France and, presumably, the hand of Joseph's oldest daughter. The status of Berg, and indeed of the Kingdom of Holland (if restored to or never taken away from Louis) could get a bit complex. Little Nappy's older bro not dying of measles in Rome could unleash a swarm, esp if he reproduces...
Eugene de Beauharnais and his descendants get the Kingdom of Italy. Yes, and presumably Frankfurt too...
Murat and his descendants keep Naples if they can. If.
As in France is nice grazing space, the khanate is united and survives to the 21st century.