Most interesting baseball AH book

Most ineresting baseball AH book idea

  • New If Baseball Integrated Early - different POD, more history

    Votes: 5 31.3%
  • Cardinals in the American League - - or some other franchise switch

    Votes: 2 12.5%
  • How things are impacted w/Cobb flaming out, Ruth elsewhere

    Votes: 3 18.8%
  • Yankees cursed almsot bad as Red Sox, maybe 1921 move which was possible

    Votes: 8 50.0%
  • More recent one, major trade, etc. going differently and lots of different results

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • A different franchise shift, no collusion, etc.

    Votes: 4 25.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 3 18.8%

  • Total voters
    16
I posted this on baseball-fever.com as well, but wanted AH.com peoples' opinions, too,

Of all my Print On Demand books, "If Baseball Integrated Early" (baseball integrated from the beginning) and "Completed Game" (baseball with no strike fiascos) do the best.

What would be the most interesting AH if I'd try to do another baseball one? I have a few other thigns I'm working on but it's a possibility for sometime later this year or next. It's a lot of fun to write 9and hopefully fun for people to read)

A different IBIE is also possible; things could have gone in a different manner with a different POD and still keep baseball integrated from the start, slowly adding more black players a la the NFL of the 1940s and 1950s. It would then cover the history of the US, too - and I could change a few other little things. (This is where I might used that idea that sputtered with the open thread starting with that wrong turn at Shiloh - perhaps instead of a fictional player who survives the Civil War (and could have beent aht superstar OTL had he not died at 18 or 19) it is instead Cap Anson not making a fuss about them (he could see the black soldiers as having prevented war with the Lakota/Sioux, for instance.) Plus, you could have a surviving Octavius Catto having an impact.

My "cardinals in the American League" timeline I did a number of years ago is one thought, because just missi9ng the sale of the Browns one day is a *very* easy Point of Departure and it leads to babe Ruth staying with the major league Baltimore team, the Cardinals as a dominant force with the Yankees, etc.. This seems to be the easiest of the "original 16" to have switch leagues right away, at least.

(Someone on BBF mentioned having the Browns be the dominant team, and some of what was suggested is included in that TL, though I think they thought the title would be the big grab for a baseball fan. For a casual fan, though, the Cardinals in the AL would be just as good doing much of what was suggested.)
A player being different - Ty Cobb flaming out with the Yankees jinxed without Ruth; it would just require someone else get Gehrig to start the process of making the Yankees just another team. Having this start from Ruth being elsewhere would help, too.

Something more recent could also work well and might be some peoples' choice. the no collusion mini-timeline I did could be interesting if expanded. Someone else mentioned Mays and Aaron together on a team, though that would likely be with something else. (Perhaps My Veeck to Milwaukee TL expanded.)

Of course, feel free to mention what "other" is like they have.
 
How about POD 1898: The National League doesn't contract, and the dead teams walking don't get raided.

The Western League, instead of having newly open markets in Baltimore, Washington, and Cleveland, has to take a different approach in becoming the second major league.

Having two Twin Cities teams is impractical so the St. Paul Saints can still become the White Sox. Grand Rapids isn't viable so maybe the Rustlers go to New York instead of Cleveland.

Don't know if you would still have the AL invade Philly, Boston, and St. Louis (or Pittsburgh as Briggs planned to do before the National Agreement). I'll leave that up to you.
 
Something with Ruth getting traded to the White Sox (in 1915 [that almost happened, I heard], or in 1920 for Joe Jackson).
 
Last edited:
How about POD 1898: The National League doesn't contract, and the dead teams walking don't get raided.

Extrapolating from that, another POD around then: the NL votes to add an Obvious Rule Patch that prevents owners from owning more than one team. This prevents the dumpster fire of a team that was the 1899 Cleveland Spiders, a team that had always been winners until ownership bought the St. Louis Perfectos and decided to dismantle the Spiders and run them as a "sideshow." If one were to block their ability to do this, the Spiders' owners would have had to suck it up in Cleveland, sell the team, or move them.

Couple that with stricter rules on raiding, and there's a strong possibility the AL never even gets a chance.
 
Extrapolating from that, another POD around then: the NL votes to add an Obvious Rule Patch that prevents owners from owning more than one team. This prevents the dumpster fire of a team that was the 1899 Cleveland Spiders, a team that had always been winners until ownership bought the St. Louis Perfectos and decided to dismantle the Spiders and run them as a "sideshow." If one were to block their ability to do this, the Spiders' owners would have had to suck it up in Cleveland, sell the team, or move them.

Couple that with stricter rules on raiding, and there's a strong possibility the AL never even gets a chance.

IOTL the American League invaded five of the eight National League markets. No reason that would have to be different. Their selling point was a family friendly experience. They banned profanity and restricted beer sales so people would be more comfortable taking their kids to the AL game than the NL game. Biggest effect would be on franchise free agency since there would be fewer open cities.
 
Something with Ruth getting traded to the White Sox (in 1915 [that almost happened, I heard], or in 1920 for Joe Jackson).

I actually started to write a TL on Ruth for Jackson and cash recently but after one part I realized after one part that it would make an interesting book. (Jackson is injured and thus doesn't take part on any meetings or the Series, so Comiskey realizes he needs to up the cash - in case Jackson can't play as well - which is what Frazee wanted, and then Frazee throws in 1-2 other minor players as well.)

I agree that the A.L. would raid the markets, anyway. I've wondered if it might be a way for baseball to integrate, too, if there is no unwritten 'agreement" against integrating; I've had integration happen in the late '30s (Ruth as a Red) which is the earliest likely after around 1900, but if Cap Anson isn't insistent on not having blacks on the field, and a star like Frank Grant is joined by a few others in the majors, it's possible one could be integrated in 1901 and the other slowly follow.
 
I actually started to write a TL on Ruth for Jackson and cash recently but after one part I realized after one part that it would make an interesting book. (Jackson is injured and thus doesn't take part on any meetings or the Series, so Comiskey realizes he needs to up the cash - in case Jackson can't play as well - which is what Frazee wanted, and then Frazee throws in 1-2 other minor players as well.)

I agree that the A.L. would raid the markets, anyway. I've wondered if it might be a way for baseball to integrate, too, if there is no unwritten 'agreement" against integrating; I've had integration happen in the late '30s (Ruth as a Red) which is the earliest likely after around 1900, but if Cap Anson isn't insistent on not having blacks on the field, and a star like Frank Grant is joined by a few others in the majors, it's possible one could be integrated in 1901 and the other slowly follow.

Another way to prevent the Series fix is no flu epidemic. Faber would have been able to pitch and thus taken starts away from Cicotte and Williams. Some of the Sox players believed that had Faber been healthy there would have been no fix.

No fix butterflies Landis away, so baseball integrates in 1943 at the latest (Veeck buying the Phillies). Wildcard there would be do the fans show up for a winner or boycott the integrated team and force it to move?
 
IOTL the American League invaded five of the eight National League markets. No reason that would have to be different. Their selling point was a family friendly experience. They banned profanity and restricted beer sales so people would be more comfortable taking their kids to the AL game than the NL game. Biggest effect would be on franchise free agency since there would be fewer open cities.

In fairness, in 1901 when the AL played its first season, only three teams were in NL cities - teams in Baltimore and Milwaukee moved within a year or two - and some markets that weee contracted after 1899 would have been locked down in 1901 had the raiding rules and the rule about owning more than one franchise been in place.

The AL might have had to pick other cities at first if the NL didn't contract post-1899, which would require 12 healthy franchises. Cleveland, Baltimore and D.C. would have continued to have teams, so either the AL would have had a bigger fight (and maybe a longer time to be accepted as an equal to the NL) or it would have had to go into a different set of cities.
 
In fairness, in 1901 when the AL played its first season, only three teams were in NL cities - teams in Baltimore and Milwaukee moved within a year or two - and some markets that weee contracted after 1899 would have been locked down in 1901 had the raiding rules and the rule about owning more than one franchise been in place.

The AL might have had to pick other cities at first if the NL didn't contract post-1899, which would require 12 healthy franchises. Cleveland, Baltimore and D.C. would have continued to have teams, so either the AL would have had a bigger fight (and maybe a longer time to be accepted as an equal to the NL) or it would have had to go into a different set of cities.

I could see the following lineup:

Chicago White Sox
New York Highlanders
Detroit Tigers
Milwaukee Brewers
Indianapolis Indians
Kansas City Blues
Minneapolis Millers
Buffalo Bisons

Chicago and New York would be needed to establish them as a serious league. Maybe one of Boston/Philly/St. Louis.

It would be a lot of fun to see how that would play out.
 
How about a situation with a few random quirks (ground ball takes an odd hop; stray gust of wind blows a foul pop just out of reach) that lead to the 1922 St. Louis Browns winning three or four more games than in OTL, and thus win the 1922 AL pennant? Imagine an AL where George Sisler and the '20s Browns were a force to be reckoned with...

Or how about one where Chick Gandil, Swede Risberg, et. al. decided throwing the 1919 Series was too risky / iffy, and decided to go all out to win--and then hold out as a team for better pay? (Remember, Eddie Collins might well have been the only member of the 1919 White Sox getting paid what he was worth: Comiskey was notoriously cheap.) What would Comiskey have done? Would he have opened his wallet, however grudgingly, or traded off players and perhaps adopted Clark Griffith's strategy 15 or 20 years earlier and brought in cheap Cuban star players? Or would he have said "the hell with it", sold the White Sox, and let it be someone else's problem?

Then there's the almost-happened move to LA that the Browns tried to pull off for 1942 (yes, before commonplace air travel). Wartime travel restrictions (Pearl Harbor and the declarations of war happened a week or so before it was proposed formally) squelched the idea. Suppose, however, after a disastrous 1938 or 1939 season, the Browns had tried to move for 1939 or 1940?
 
How about a situation with a few random quirks (ground ball takes an odd hop; stray gust of wind blows a foul pop just out of reach) that lead to the 1922 St. Louis Browns winning three or four more games than in OTL, and thus win the 1922 AL pennant? Imagine an AL where George Sisler and the '20s Browns were a force to be reckoned with...

Or how about one where Chick Gandil, Swede Risberg, et. al. decided throwing the 1919 Series was too risky / iffy, and decided to go all out to win--and then hold out as a team for better pay? (Remember, Eddie Collins might well have been the only member of the 1919 White Sox getting paid what he was worth: Comiskey was notoriously cheap.) What would Comiskey have done? Would he have opened his wallet, however grudgingly, or traded off players and perhaps adopted Clark Griffith's strategy 15 or 20 years earlier and brought in cheap Cuban star players? Or would he have said "the hell with it", sold the White Sox, and let it be someone else's problem?

Then there's the almost-happened move to LA that the Browns tried to pull off for 1942 (yes, before commonplace air travel). Wartime travel restrictions (Pearl Harbor and the declarations of war happened a week or so before it was proposed formally) squelched the idea. Suppose, however, after a disastrous 1938 or 1939 season, the Browns had tried to move for 1939 or 1940?

If I remember correctly, Risberg and Gandil were relatively expendable.

Comiskey trades Jackson, Weaver, Cocotte, and Williams. There are precedents for that, such as Connie Mack's fire sale after the 1914 World Series and the Red Sox selling Carl Mays to the Yankees during a holdout.
 
I could see the following lineup:

Chicago White Sox
New York Highlanders
Detroit Tigers
Milwaukee Brewers
Indianapolis Indians
Kansas City Blues
Minneapolis Millers
Buffalo Bisons

Chicago and New York would be needed to establish them as a serious league. Maybe one of Boston/Philly/St. Louis.

It would be a lot of fun to see how that would play out.

Not bad, but I don't think you'd get away with Minneapolis getting a team by itself: don't forget that in the American Association both Minneapolis and St. Paul had teams (and were, of course, bitter rivals). What I could see would be someone like traction magnate Thomas Lowry (owner of Twin Cities Rapid Transit, the Minneapolis / St. Paul streetcar system) buying the franchise and building a park in the vicinity of the Minnesota state fairgrounds--served, of course by TCRT streetcars coming from all over the metropolitan area. Between that and the fairgrounds traffic every August, Lowry would be raking in the cash. Call the team something like the Twin Cities Harvesters or Twin Cities Twisters (OK, the Twin Cities are on the northern fringe but tornados in that part of Minnesota are certainly not unknown / unusual).
 
Another way to prevent the Series fix is no flu epidemic. Faber would have been able to pitch and thus taken starts away from Cicotte and Williams. Some of the Sox players believed that had Faber been healthy there would have been no fix.

No fix butterflies Landis away, so baseball integrates in 1943 at the latest (Veeck buying the Phillies). Wildcard there would be do the fans show up for a winner or boycott the integrated team and force it to move?

Indeed, that's how - with a different Commissioner even in TLs like "Ruth as a Red" - I have them integrating in the late '30s, when popularity of stars like Joe Louis and Jesse Owens made it more plausible.

John McGraw wanted to integrate the A.L. in 1901 - he tried to claim a black player (Charlie Grant) was an Indian with the Orioles. I wonder if there's a way the A>L. would agree - although McGraw was such an umpire-baiter he likely wasn't the A.L.'s type no matter what, so maybe it would take someone else or would take McGraw doing so in the N.L. Because the A.L. is so much more successful they feel the need to try something.

Then again, you could do that in the 1880s, too, with stars like frank Grant. Indeed, the survival of the American Association would also be interesting. World series in the 1890s?

I wonder if Ruth with the White Sox would get the Cubs to look harder at that Gehrig kid who hit a long home run in Wrigley Field at age 17.
 
John McGraw wanted to integrate the A.L. in 1901 - he tried to claim a black player (Charlie Grant) was an Indian with the Orioles. I wonder if there's a way the A>L. would agree - although McGraw was such an umpire-baiter he likely wasn't the A.L.'s type no matter what, so maybe it would take someone else or would take McGraw doing so in the N.L. Because the A.L. is so much more successful they feel the need to try something.

In his papers, after his death, his wife found a list of Negro League players McGraw wanted for the Giants. So try this: after losing a couple of Series to the hated cross-river rival Yankees, McGraw decides it's time for drastic measures, Commissioner Landis be damned. He goes to the Giants management and gives them a list of a half-dozen black players that he maintains will put the Giants over the top as world champions for several years to come--and increase Polo Grounds attendance in the bargain (after all, the Polo Grounds is at the north end of Harlem). Landis is the only kicker, but a number of owners don't like him much in the first place. So...how about a rebellion starting with the Giants and then perhaps a few have-not teams looking to improve fast/cheap (Phillies; Braves; Reds) thumb noses at Landis and hire black players for, say the 1924 season?
 
Have you ever considered a deeper AH a la a different version of baseball? Something along the lines of the Massachusetts Game becoming standard rather than Knickerbocker rules for example. Or echo the various football codes by having a single universally popular bat and ball game with more minor variants also being popular.

For football codes, association footbal/soccer is played pretty universally, with rugby union, rugby league, gridiron, Aussie rules, Canadian football, Gaelic football, and a few others being more minor. Cricket and baseball don't have that universal quality. Having (X bat and ball game) reach that universal level with a couple of US versions of baseball, cricket, rounders, etc. might be pretty cool.
 
I know its out there but I would love to see baseball play a 16 game schedule like football does. Imagine each team with only one star pitcher and a back up, Monday morning Umpires debating each week of games, probably longer careers to boot.
 
Top