Most evil and biggest plausible Bad Guy

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Everybody here says Draka is ASB. OK, what is the absolute worst that the multiverse could reasonably spew up? Or is the Third Reich the worst?
 

Straha

Banned
draka is not ASB and a society with assyrian,skythian,mongol,aztec and sumerian roots woulkd be _EXTREMELY_ evil
 
Howery's America

Seriously? There's no limit to what evil other timelines could have. In the Crazy Days ATL for instance, I have a Communist India, Italy & Theocratic Military Russian Dictatorship. I'm sure there are timelines out there were a government considerably worse than the Nazi regime came to power in Germany (like perhaps a Communist, Military or more devious Fascist regime).
 
Hmm.. it can't be good when we're discussing bad guys and my name comes up :p
Seriously, though, it would be tough to come up with something worse than the Third Reich. Think of it: they are dedicated to glorifying a single ethnic group, and all other ones are good only for death or slavery. All power is concentrated in the hands of a dictator. There have been people who have killed more than the Nazis, but none who have done it so deliberately against everyone else in the world. Sure, Stalin was bad, but he didn't set out to kill or enslave everyone who wasn't of his particular ethnic group....
 
POTUS P.Diffin said:
Howery's America

Seriously? There's no limit to what evil other timelines could have. In the Crazy Days ATL for instance, I have a Communist India, Italy & Theocratic Military Russian Dictatorship. I'm sure there are timelines out there were a government considerably worse than the Nazi regime came to power in Germany (like perhaps a Communist, Military or more devious Fascist regime).

Can you give me an example of a more EVIL regime? Use your imagination, no ASB. I can't imagine anything worse than Nazi Germany, and if you can, I recommend counselling.
 
"Sure, Stalin was bad, but he didn't set out to kill or enslave everyone who wasn't of his particular ethnic group...."

Yes, but he was out for TOTAL power and killed ANYONE who could POSSIBLY challenge him. Plus, he did not care about the human costs of building his empire (plus, he DID engage in large-scale slave labor). Hence 40 million deaths, without having to start a major war (unlike Hitler, who had to start WWII in Europe to get to a slightly smaller number).

Racism is evil, but it is not the ultimate evil. I'm inclined to think lust for power (hence Mao, Stalin, etc) is up there too. Hitler killed relatively few of his own ethnicity, but butt-loads of "inferiors." Stalin, on the other hand, killed huge #s of people of EVERY ethnicity. You can cite "at least he wasn't prejudiced" as a "good," but it could also work against Stalin...he's so evil he didn't even spare his own people.

John,

The Unification world (from this site, I think) started a global nuclear holocaust and managed to overcome the forces of Right and Freedom. A victorious totalitarian regime that's killed billions is probably worse than the Third Reich.
 
John,

There's also the "Dark America" TL somewhere where we've got a New-Deal/WWII-out-of-control scenario in the US and a Stalin-type regime in Russia that outlasts Stalin himself. That could conceivably be worse than the 3rd Reich.

Look through "AH Dystopias" and you'll find some seriously scary stuff.
 
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
Can you give me an example of a more EVIL regime? Use your imagination, no ASB. I can't imagine anything worse than Nazi Germany, and if you can, I recommend counselling.


Sign me up for conselling, then. I would imagine a regime which had all of the totalitarian and genocidal aspects of Nazi Germany would be even worse if it were also characterized by a rigid economic/social caste system keeping the vast majority of the population in abject poverty (which the "socialist" part of National Socialism did not) . Add a blood religion with human sacrifice and it gets even more interesting. Such a society in a preindustrial/prescienfific state would also be worse. Industrialized Nazi Aztecs would be pretty scary. I don't think modern civilization has ever created anything worse than Nazism, but it can be done without ASB's
 
It's not only about how evil a regime actually is, it's also about how successful it is. Some of the timelines that people consider really ugly are so horribly fascinating because the bad guys win.
 
Matt Quinn said:
"Sure, Stalin was bad, but he didn't set out to kill or enslave everyone who wasn't of his particular ethnic group...."

Yes, but he was out for TOTAL power and killed ANYONE who could POSSIBLY challenge him. Plus, he did not care about the human costs of building his empire (plus, he DID engage in large-scale slave labor). Hence 40 million deaths, without having to start a major war (unlike Hitler, who had to start WWII in Europe to get to a slightly smaller number).

Racism is evil, but it is not the ultimate evil. I'm inclined to think lust for power (hence Mao, Stalin, etc) is up there too. Hitler killed relatively few of his own ethnicity, but butt-loads of "inferiors." Stalin, on the other hand, killed huge #s of people of EVERY ethnicity. You can cite "at least he wasn't prejudiced" as a "good," but it could also work against Stalin...he's so evil he didn't even spare his own people.

John,

The Unification world (from this site, I think) started a global nuclear holocaust and managed to overcome the forces of Right and Freedom. A victorious totalitarian regime that's killed billions is probably worse than the Third Reich.

Thank you. I have to reject your "body count" criterion for evil. Intent must always be the primary factor in making moral judgements. Hitler intended to exterminate entire races, Stalin did not, and the death toll of his regime is constantly inflated in any case. Hitler also wanted to conquer the world, Stalin had no interest in this - all his acquisitions were defensive. His aim was to build a stronger Russia, which he did.
 
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
Can you give me an example of a more EVIL regime? Use your imagination, no ASB. I can't imagine anything worse than Nazi Germany, and if you can, I recommend counselling.

A few regimes that could be called worse than OTL's Nazi Germany (that I can think of):

A Pol-Pot/Stalinist style Communist regime in India

A more anti-Semitic Stalinist Russia

An Ultra-nationalist Ba'athist region-conquering regime in Syria or Iraq

A Communist regime under a far more oppressive Mussolini

A repressive military regime in 1920's-1930's Germany, a la Myanmar/Burma or Pinochet's Chile.

A Russia under Vladimir Zhirinovsky

These are just a few of the mind-bogglingly horrible dystopias I can think of.
 
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Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
(...) His aim was to build a stronger Russia, which he did.
Hm, you really do like old Uncle Joe, eh, Pasha?

Most powermad dictators, kings, tyrants etc etc just wants to build a stronger something - Hitler wanted a stronger Germany (which of course didn't include Jews, Gypsies, Communists and what not), but that still makes him a very nasty character in my book... I don't give much for Stalins motives, he made untold millions suffer because of HIS ideology and wants, not theirs, which I think is a very important point. The Russians, or Soviets if You please, didn't want Stalinism in form of mass deportations, Gulags, state induced (for one reason or another) famines etc etc.

One thing history should have taught us is that dictators with an extreme ideology and an intend to make their country stronger is very bad news for the local population...

My vote for badest guy is on Stalin, with Hitler/Mao runing a close second...

Best regards!

- Mr.Bluenote.
 
Difficult to imagine something worse than Nazism on the whole, though I personally would prefer living under Hitler than under Stalin, Mao, Kim Il Sung and Pol Pot (but I'm not a Jew).
Communism was Luciferine, but Nazism was definitely satanic.
 
I have a future history set in ~2246 where the United Terran Empire is an absolute empire with a nobility and hostile military. Anyone not a noble, military elite, or corporate tycoon lives in utter poverty in hellish conditions, the life expectancy on some planets is 17.

In addition their are two religions that mutually hate each other, the Church of the Machine and the Church of the Genome. Each wants to impose their view on the people and have monopolies on genetic modifications and cybernetic enhancements.

Fortunately a rebel group seeks to overturn all of this, but they are weak.
 
Mr.Bluenote said:
Hm, you really do like old Uncle Joe, eh, Pasha?

Most powermad dictators, kings, tyrants etc etc just wants to build a stronger something - Hitler wanted a stronger Germany (which of course didn't include Jews, Gypsies, Communists and what not), but that still makes him a very nasty character in my book... I don't give much for Stalins motives, he made untold millions suffer because of HIS ideology and wants, not theirs, which I think is a very important point. The Russians, or Soviets if You please, didn't want Stalinism in form of mass deportations, Gulags, state induced (for one reason or another) famines etc etc.

One thing history should have taught us is that dictators with an extreme ideology and an intend to make their country stronger is very bad news for the local population...

My vote for badest guy is on Stalin, with Hitler/Mao runing a close second...

Best regards!

- Mr.Bluenote.


I always felt that dead is dead. If a family member of mine is killed by the government I couldn't care less if it was because he was a Jew or Gypsy or because he was a Kulak. Hitler was probably worse then Stalin because he had less time to rack up the body count. That must be taken in consideration.
 
John,

Stalin was expansionist as well; he was just uber-cautious and much saner than Leon Trotsky, who was so expansionist that if he assumed power, he would probably drag the USSR into a suicidal war. Also much saner than Adolph Hitler--Stalin wasn't stupid enough to challenge two of the greatest industrial powers on the planet at the same time.

Besides, if you want to play the "defensive" game, if you conquer the whole world, nobody can attack you anymore. In Stirling's "Domination," he uses the phrase "fear-driven aggression" and it could certainly be applied to Russia, Czarist, Communist, or otherwise, which has been invaded numerous times by especially vicious foreigners (Mongols, Hitler, etc).

My Russian friend said that, "Hitler killed other people, Stalin killed his own." She was Jewish, by the way, so she has absolutely NO reason to think highly of Hitler.

"A Pol-Pot/Stalinist style Communist regime in India"

That would be very bad indeed. 1/3 of India's population dead would come out to be more or less 500 million (300 million if it's in the 70s like OTL's Pol Pot).
 
"Hitler was probably worse then Stalin because he had less time to rack up the body count. That must be taken in consideration"

But Stalin didn't have to start a major war to kill more people than Hitler (though he certainly contributed to WWII with the Nazi-Soviet Pact and his conquests of the Baltic states and assault on Finland).

Pre-WWII, the Nazis imprisoned 100,000 people in labor camps, killed several thousand political opponents outright, extorted a billion marks or so from and then expelled the country's Jews, and indulged in domestic martial-law type stuff. Once they actually invaded the neighbors, THEN the mass-killings started.
 
Matt Quinn said:
"Hitler was probably worse then Stalin because he had less time to rack up the body count. That must be taken in consideration"

But Stalin didn't have to start a major war to kill more people than Hitler (though he certainly contributed to WWII with the Nazi-Soviet Pact and his conquests of the Baltic states and assault on Finland).

Pre-WWII, the Nazis imprisoned 100,000 people in labor camps, killed several thousand political opponents outright, extorted a billion marks or so from and then expelled the country's Jews, and indulged in domestic martial-law type stuff. Once they actually invaded the neighbors, THEN the mass-killings started.

True enough.
 
Of course, the Nazi plans for the East involve killing up to 30 million Slavic people, so their genocidal intentions extending beyond simply killing Jews. Think the conquest of Prussia by the Teutonic Knights, only not moderated by any sort of consideration for the victims' eternal souls and with modern tech, and then multiply by several orders of magnitude.

Stalin was plotting another Great Purge, the killing/exile of all Soviet Jews, and WWIII before he died, so that's another big black mark on an already dark record. Fortunately he had a convenient stroke (or his associates finally got some backbone and killed him in his bed), so that never happened. However, this plays into John's "intent" argument.
 
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