Most Efficient Military Structure

Indeed, a Dolchstosslegende has some pretty enduring psychological crutch aspects, reality of the situation be damned.

It has nothing to do with a stab in the back. Hitler was an out and out fuckwit who picked shit allies, misused his resources, tried to command actual army units in battle, threw fits, didn't think strategicially and didn't knuckle down and do any of the hard work needed to run a country at war. Stalin, arsehole that he was, worked hard during the war to ensure all the strategic/political things were running properly abnd therefore they did. The fact of the matter is that fighting skills and operation mastery don't win wars. Shit flows downhill, so once the Allies reached a certain level of fighting power and operational skills their political/strategic mastery won them the war.
 
It has nothing to do with a stab in the back. Hitler was an out and out fuckwit who picked shit allies, misused his resources, tried to command actual army units in battle, threw fits, didn't think strategicially and didn't knuckle down and do any of the hard work needed to run a country at war. Stalin, arsehole that he was, worked hard during the war to ensure all the strategic/political things were running properly abnd therefore they did. The fact of the matter is that fighting skills and operation mastery don't win wars. Shit flows downhill, so once the Allies reached a certain level of fighting power and operational skills their political/strategic mastery won them the war.

The problem is this was how Hitler acted in 1939-41. So why didn't he prevent Germany from taking over Poland, let alone France, Norway, Belgium, Denmark, Yugoslavia, and Greece, or prevent the Wehrmacht from getting to Smolensk, let alone Kiev, Moscow, or Leningrad? It's a Dolchstosslegende with the benefit of a greater core of truth than the previous one and Hitler being a monstrous dick to the point that few people would bother see whether his monstrosity was cardboard caricature or real person.
 
The problem is this was how Hitler acted in 1939-41. So why didn't he prevent Germany from taking over Poland, let alone France, Norway, Belgium, Denmark, Yugoslavia, and Greece, or prevent the Wehrmacht from getting to Smolensk, let alone Kiev, Moscow, or Leningrad?
Because up to 1941 he wasn't trying to micro-manage his generals, and the German army was on the offensive against less mobile enemies. When the Russians became as mobile as the Germans...well you know what happened then, the numbers were all going Russians way, and Hitler started micro-managing, which totally f***ed the Germans, especially with so many 'hold your ground' orders.
 
Because up to 1941 he wasn't trying to micro-manage his generals, and the German army was on the offensive against less mobile enemies. When the Russians became as mobile as the Germans...well you know what happened then, the numbers were all going Russians way, and Hitler started micro-managing, which totally f***ed the Germans, especially with so many 'hold your ground' orders.

Actually he was trying to micromanage his generals. They wanted to repeat the Schlieffen Plan, Hitler felt that might be a bad idea. They were hoping the weather would stall Hitler, as they were not going to in the fall of 1939 in his hopes for a major offensive. He overrode any of their protests about the 1939-41 Einsatzgruppen, he forced Sichelsnitt through against their will, went into both North Africa and Greece when they did not want to do so, and planned a full invasion of the USSR when the generals wanted to keep the 1922-1933 contacts between the two states going on. He micromanaged the war to literally ludicrous extents from the first, but curiously it only began to go wrong after the Battle of Moscow....
 

stalkere

Banned
stalkere, about power projection, what countries can project any kind of force? I think most countries couldn't attack their neighbor's neighbor tbh


Power Projection - that's a game for the big boys.
America - we're in that game big time. Anywhere, anytime. We can deliver troops in 30 hours or less. I remember a trip to the Congo. Angola was going to help "secure" some Uranium mines. The US decided to send some Armor out there to help secure them instead.

Angolans had to move their tanks something like 200 miles. We were sending ours from Colorado. Our platoon of Abrams and Bradleys was in place, along with some Canadian Peacekeepers, before the Ugandans made it halfway, so they turned around and went home.

Big problem is - we are starting to run into the same problem the Brits had. We CAN'T afford it. That kind of power is nice to have, but expensive.

And hell - I'm an American, but you know what? I"m NOT comfortable with the US having that much power. Sorry, but that's the way I feel. I DID not like the way the US acted in Libya. We had a deal with Gaddafi, he honored his part of the deal, and Obama kind came in and decided "hey, I'm going to change the deal." Uh, sorry, I don't like the way Gaddafi was running Libya - but hey, he'd given up his WMD, allowed inspectors in, done what he was asked to do - that should have been enough for us. But any further discussion on THAT belongs in Political Chat, methinks, not here.


The Russians have some good power projection - still not back up to where they were in the 1980s, but not too shabby. Their Indian ocean Squadron is looking pretty nice, and their Marine ( sorry Special naval Infantry) is nothing to sneeze at. Their Airborne - VDV - is definitely nothing to make fun of. Closer to our Rangers as a whole - where we have an Airborne Division and a Ranger Regiment, they have more like a Ranger division, with something like a regiment of training cadre at our Airborne skill level. Russian Navy is coming back from where it was ten years ago.

The Brits and the French have something like one Carrier Group and one Amphib group each to put out there these days

The Brits are great - as always - there just isn't very many of them. What they have is damned fine quality, but that only take you so far.


the French - not many of them either - and from what I hear, the carrier has trouble maintaining sustained operations for more than a few days - even off Libya - and from what I here (not always that reliable) the French Amphib group is kind of excreble.

China - kinda scary...but at the same time, they have a lot of teething troubles. they are still in the "neato toys" stage.

India - nobody to be scornful of. Good stuff, dedicated military, but their caste system is holding them back. their Navy comes out here in exercise, and usually more than a few ships have to be towed home <shrug> just the way it is. They get that part solved, and they will be scary.

Argentina - they have a carrier that hardly ever puts to sea, no? And a lot of planes that look pretty on the ramp, but don't get a lot of flying hours. At least that's what I hear, somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

And...off the top of my head, that just about does it.
 
Actually he was trying to micromanage his generals. They wanted to repeat the Schlieffen Plan, Hitler felt that might be a bad idea. They were hoping the weather would stall Hitler, as they were not going to in the fall of 1939 in his hopes for a major offensive. He overrode any of their protests about the 1939-41 Einsatzgruppen, he forced Sichelsnitt through against their will, went into both North Africa and Greece when they did not want to do so, and planned a full invasion of the USSR when the generals wanted to keep the 1922-1933 contacts between the two states going on. He micromanaged the war to literally ludicrous extents from the first, but curiously it only began to go wrong after the Battle of Moscow....

Hitler went as far as German middle management exellence could take him by 1941, often by defying reasonable military wisdom, but the writing was on the wall even then. By the BoB Britain with a smaller economy was outproducing Germany, so much so that the shortage of transport was the reason for the late start to Barbarossa. Of course high war production is a result of good government, resource allocation and the like, i.e. hard work and dilligence over an extended time period, which is exactly what Hitler sucked at.

Just as a matter of interest I lay the blame on Hitler, but it was the whole Nazi "cabinet" for want of a better word that was at fault, but all were in thrall to Hitler so ultimate responsibility lies with him.
 

stalkere

Banned
By that logic, so does artillery and tanks but they are not separated from the Army as far as I can tell.

Wow. Dissemble much?

Try this again. <sigh>

ARMY artillery, ARMY armor ARMY Infantry.

MARINE Artillery MARINE armor MARINE Infantry.

You generally do not not cross branches except at the senior NCO or Senior Officer level.

And crossing Services, and Service branches, even worse.

NOT just hide bound custom.

For example - Army went to Abrams. Marines stayed with M-60 for almost 15 years longer. Marines, stupid, right? Hidebound, cheap, unable to change, to cheap to get modern weaponry?

No.

Abrams WON'T fit on AMPHIB ASSAULT SHIP. What's the point of buying a tank that you can't get to the beaches to support the Marines?

Stay with the increasingly obsolete M-60 that can still sorta get the job done until the Navy can afford to get you some ship and assault craft that WILL deliver the Abrams to the assault beach. THEN buy some Abrams.

And change some stuff on your Abrams, so it WILL survive in the Amphib assault environment. Not really what the Army designed it to do, but its an awesome, well designed tank, with a lot of flexibility.

Marines are in Afghanistan because they are light infantry - not because of the amphib part of the mission. All the Army units that are in the Rockpile are light infantry with Combat Arms supports to help them.

and - talk to an Army infantry guy. He might argue with you a bit about Treadheads and Cannon-cockers - if they count as being in the "real Army" (tm):) (grin, run, duck and cover)

No, seriously - Army Doctrine has Artillery and Armor as integral parts of the Fire and Manuver plan.

Marine Doctrine - Land, kick in the door, call for fire for air strikes and Naval gunfire and who ever has something that can hit anything to big for you to handle. grab what you can and hold until relieved.

Marine Armor - land on the beach and support the Marines until something bigger comes along - like the Army gets a harbor or an airstrip and they can start landing a bunch of THEIR guys.

Marine Artillery - land and set up and support the Marine infantry in case the Navy has to sail away and go do something else. Hang on until you are wiped out or the Navy comes back, or the Army show up or something...
 
Top