Most effective "possible" WWII weapon at sinking merchantmen?

Deleted member 1487

So in general who had the best torpedoes at the start of the war?

Japanese had excellent surface launched torpedoes. Clearly their air launched torpedoes worked at Pearl. What about submarine torpedoes?

So for best weapon, is possible to develop a oxygen powered air launched torpedo in Germany? Japanese did not use oxygen for air launched torpedoes, is this because of the explosion hazard?
Probably the British. The Japanese ones were very good if you don't mind their habit of exploding due to sparks or depth charges.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_93_torpedo
 
Fact is, there's a good argument to be made for one torpedo per ship even if it doesn't result in a sinking. It absorbs yard space to repair; it keeps older ships in service (which are generally smaller & slower); & it creates crew casualties, which absorb resources; & it allows survivors to spread stories, lowering morale.

It's not as dramatic, nor as morale-boosting for the sub user...

If you want the most effective submarine weapon for anti-shipping, it's magnetic mines: no losses in submarines laying them, roughly one ship sunk per twenty-five mines laid (possibly more ships/fewer mines; this is confirmed sinkings) plus roughly one ship damaged per twenty-five mines laid (same proviso). (Source is a book I read once on mine warfare, name I don't recall...:eek:)
 
one of the benefits of Germany staying aligned with China would be opportunity to practice some asymmetrical naval warfare.

maybe the torpedo issues get addressed there?
 
If you want the most effective submarine weapon for anti-shipping, it's magnetic mines: no losses in submarines laying them, roughly one ship sunk per twenty-five mines laid (possibly more ships/fewer mines; this is confirmed sinkings) plus roughly one ship damaged per twenty-five mines laid (same proviso). (Source is a book I read once on mine warfare, name I don't recall...:eek:)

But weren't the magnetic mines defeated by degaussing?
 
For military ships, yes, but for civilian ships it may not have been doable on such a scale.

IIRC from Churchill it was an easy procedure and all the ships were submitted to it in regular intervals. I'd have to find the relevant quote, but I think it is somewhere in volume 2.
 
Hi value ships such as troop ships and major RN wardhips had loops fitted all other ships were regularly sent to a De Gausing range where there magnetic signeture was measured and then negated by sweeping the ship with a chaged cable to depolarise the steel. If the luftwaffe had not gifted the RN a magnetic mine by dropping it on a tidal mud flat and the Germans had stuck to laying them from ships and subs it would have taken much longer for the British to devise counter measures and the losses created would have been a factor of magnitued greater.
 
If the luftwaffe had not gifted the RN a magnetic mine by dropping it on a tidal mud flat and the Germans had stuck to laying them from ships and subs it would have taken much longer for the British to devise counter measures and the losses created would have been a factor of magnitued greater.

This was bound to happen, sooner or later, given the profile of LW mining operations.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Hi value ships such as troop ships and major RN wardhips had loops fitted all other ships were regularly sent to a De Gausing range where there magnetic signeture was measured and then negated by sweeping the ship with a chaged cable to depolarise the steel. If the luftwaffe had not gifted the RN a magnetic mine by dropping it on a tidal mud flat and the Germans had stuck to laying them from ships and subs it would have taken much longer for the British to devise counter measures and the losses created would have been a factor of magnitued greater.

Just the fact that it was magnetic would allow degaussing to work. The design helped to SWEEP it, AIUI.
 
Hi value ships such as troop ships and major RN wardhips had loops fitted all other ships were regularly sent to a De Gausing range where there magnetic signeture was measured and then negated by sweeping the ship with a chaged cable to depolarise the steel. If the luftwaffe had not gifted the RN a magnetic mine by dropping it on a tidal mud flat and the Germans had stuck to laying them from ships and subs it would have taken much longer for the British to devise counter measures and the losses created would have been a factor of magnitued greater.

Hmm, that argument strikes me as a bit speculative though. Do we know how likely it was that of the thousands of mines deployed, some would wind up in british hands intact relatively quickly? Do we know how long it would have taken them to figure it out without an intact example?

We only have the OTL facts that say up to the discovery they hadn't figured it out, and when they discovered one they figured it out quickly. It's safe to say it would have taken them longer without the lucky find, but that doesn't mean it would have taken them very long.
 
Hmm, that argument strikes me as a bit speculative though. Do we know how likely it was that of the thousands of mines deployed, some would wind up in british hands intact relatively quickly? Do we know how long it would have taken them to figure it out without an intact example?

It was not just likely. It was inevitable that a mine would end up intact in British hands. The method of planting them by plane was certain to drop one into mud somewhere near the shore at some point...
 
APMIP, I concur completely as soon as the Lufftwaffe started dropping them it was only a matter of time before one was recovered intact. IIRC it was because it landed in soft mud, no hard impact to set off the impact pistol and it landed at low tide, hence the hydrostativ arming system did not activate so disarming and recovery was possibe, by a very brave man indeed!
 
I'll agree, the Luftwaffe was going to blow it eventually. (Against Japan, there was never an issue.) With that proviso, however, IMO the rest stands: mining is still lowest risk & highest payoff.
 
Hmm, that argument strikes me as a bit speculative though. Do we know how likely it was that of the thousands of mines deployed, some would wind up in british hands intact relatively quickly? Do we know how long it would have taken them to figure it out without an intact example?

We only have the OTL facts that say up to the discovery they hadn't figured it out, and when they discovered one they figured it out quickly. It's safe to say it would have taken them longer without the lucky find, but that doesn't mean it would have taken them very long.

Britain already had a magnetic mine which was a superior model to the one washed up on mud flats off Shoeburyness (the UK had developed a magnetic mine at the end of WW1 but never deployed it and hadn't deployed their latest version thus far in WW2 as they were concerned it would wash up on a mud flat somewhere and give up all its secrets) - although it confirmed the arming mechanism.

The chaps that defused the mine in Nov 39 'just happened' to have tools made of Brass ;)
 

Deleted member 1487

I'll agree, the Luftwaffe was going to blow it eventually. (Against Japan, there was never an issue.) With that proviso, however, IMO the rest stands: mining is still lowest risk & highest payoff.
It was actually a navy aircraft that dropped the mine. The LW had better mine handling procedures.
 
So Britain and Germany both independently developed magnetic mines/torpedoes before World War Two; did any of the other naval powers do so?
 
Thought hard about this...

...The most useful merchant ship killer other than a U-boat is a cheap and cheerful commerce raider based on a converted merchantman, able to clandestinely mine the approaches to a major port, provide support to U-boats and fire guns up to 150 mm calibre at targets of opportunity. I refer, of course, to the HSK (HandelsSchiff Kreutzer) auxiliary cruisers, some of which had an Arado seaplane as a spotting aircraft.

May I introduce you to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_auxiliary_cruiser_Orion which did rather well minelaying off New Zealand. 62,915 registered tonnes sunk.

And Thor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_auxiliary_cruiser_Thor 96,547 registered tonnes sunk or captured.

The famous Kormoran actually sank a Light Cruiser (HMAS Sydney) so although it was lost in the action, it was strong enough to do its job.

I have to say that the nine HSK were remarkably effective, in aggregate sinking over 140 ships (over 700,000 tonnes of shipping). I have considered the effects of a deliberate prewar policy to build and send a fairly large number out as covert sub depot ships. They can trade commercially until it's time to break out the crated guns and assemble a light seaplane. Not as satisfactory as a converted Q-ship, but a bloody pest for the allied navies and useful to the U-boat commanders.

So there - in terms of tonnage sunk - is your most effective anti-commerce weapon. Not very glamorous, but the original naval pain in the bum.
 

Deleted member 1487

...The most useful merchant ship killer other than a U-boat is a cheap and cheerful commerce raider based on a converted merchantman, able to clandestinely mine the approaches to a major port, provide support to U-boats and fire guns up to 150 mm calibre at targets of opportunity. I refer, of course, to the HSK (HandelsSchiff Kreutzer) auxiliary cruisers, some of which had an Arado seaplane as a spotting aircraft.

May I introduce you to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_auxiliary_cruiser_Orion which did rather well minelaying off New Zealand. 62,915 registered tonnes sunk.

And Thor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_auxiliary_cruiser_Thor 96,547 registered tonnes sunk or captured.

The famous Kormoran actually sank a Light Cruiser (HMAS Sydney) so although it was lost in the action, it was strong enough to do its job.

I have to say that the nine HSK were remarkably effective, in aggregate sinking over 140 ships (over 700,000 tonnes of shipping). I have considered the effects of a deliberate prewar policy to build and send a fairly large number out as covert sub depot ships. They can trade commercially until it's time to break out the crated guns and assemble a light seaplane. Not as satisfactory as a converted Q-ship, but a bloody pest for the allied navies and useful to the U-boat commanders.

So there - in terms of tonnage sunk - is your most effective anti-commerce weapon. Not very glamorous, but the original naval pain in the bum.
There is a point of diminishing returns on these, you can only operate so many before they stand out and are caught. And again convoys prevent them from working. They have to hide and are a guerilla weapon, but you can only have a few for them to work at peak efficiency.
 
Agreed...

...However, there were never enough sent out to close the sea-lanes immediately after war was declared. Not very survivable, but a massive distraction for the Royal Navy in the first months of the war.

Did the Japanese ever build their own version of an HSK?
 
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