Morocco successfully emulates the Spanish Empire's glory

Griffith

Banned
Considering religion in considered the backbone of why Spain became a superpower and that Spain today is one of the least religious countries while Morocco was the refuge of the Moors, Spain's traditional enemy.............

(As well as the deciding factor to why Spain would develop the religious fanaticism that lead her to becoming a superpower and the bulwark of the Catholic Church as well as the source of Spain's access to science that would give them the tech needed to explore the new world)


I wonder why Morocco couldn't emulate the Spanish empire's path or at least develop a regional power strong enough not only to oust the Ottomans but even explore the new world and perhaps take a few places for herself.

Is there any chance of Morocco at least developing an empire strong enough to say maybe take some islands in the Caribbean and possibly some of the weaker less developed regions in the Americas such as parts of Quebec and Cuba?
 

Oceano

Banned
I think there was a abortive project?

Are there good ports to the west? Because if not then they will have to fight to control Gibraltar or the Spanish finish their colonization effort.

What about the tech? The portuguese have been researching and obtaining new ship-building and navigation tech since the 1300s. Where is the Moroccan equivalent of Sagros comes from? Maybe spies could help but trying to steal the cool portuguese ship-building tech seems like the epoch's equivalent of russian spies trying to steal Project Apollo's blueprints. That sort of thing was TOP SECRET, then.

In fact, the biggest problem here is that the Spanish or the Portuguese could easily send their fleet to the bottom. They're at the forefront of shipbuilding tech atm. Maybe if Morroco had a alliance with the Ottomans, the Ottomans could send help, but their fleet is mediterranean, not atlantic, if their mediterranean galleys try to fight Portuguese and/or Spanish ships in the atlantic, its going to be Alt-Lepanto.

What about naval tradition? I know there's the Barbary Pirates but its a Mediterranean thing, mostly. In fact, I think they could be a reason why the Moroccans get interested - stealing that sweet Indian spice and New World Gold and Silver.
 
Religion and religious fanaticism had nothing to do with Spain's success. It was all technology, economic incentive, and lucking into conquering the main sources of gold and silver in the Americas while also conquering a huge mercury mine and owning a Spanish mercury mine necessary to extract those metals from hte earth.

Morocco was a land-based power with trading focused towards the Sahara and those gold routes from the time of al-Murabitun. Their ports were, from the early 15th century onward, constantly under siege or owned by Iberian powers. There was dynastic intrigue and great instability, and they spent a great deal of energy conquering Songhai. As Muslims, they also had greater access to the Muslim trading world, and had little need to go around the Horn of Africa towards India or to expand into the Americas.
 

Deleted member 67076

Morocco in short imploded during the late 1400s under the Wattasid Dynasty and spent most of its energy in the late 1500s-1600s trying to reclaim its former glory with futile campaigns in the Sahel (the so called Pashalik of Timbuktu never managed to be under central control and never sent tribute north) to cement control of the trade routes and challenging the Iberians, with less than optimal outcomes.

This was then combined with further dynastic problems, diplomatic isolation, a stagnant population, a economy prone to boom/bust cycles (because of all the instability), lack of effective infrastructure and angry nomads that didn't want to be under central control.

These issues need to be addressed before Morocco can think of expanding outwards and across the ocean. One way I can think of is by having the Sahel unified by a new great empire (Mali had a couple of periods of comeback) with sufficient military strength to prevent the Moroccans from thinking they can invade and hold down territories 2000km away. An idea I've had to accomplish this would be Great Fula unifying the Sahel in the 1500-1600s with a bit of luck, stability, and access to those fancy new flintlocks. This would include decisively crushing the Pashalik of Timbuktu and monopolizing the trade routes, forcing Morocco to either diversify its sources of revenue or improve its ability to compete in trade.
 
They'd still have no reason to go to the Caribbean -- and would be facing stiff competition.... from people who are good at boats.
 
At least in the Middle Ages, Morocco was never really unified enough to do this. Add that to the fact that every time they tried, a new group of Berber rigorists would come riding out of the Atlas Mountains and take over by the sword.
 

Deleted member 67076

They'd still have no reason to go to the Caribbean -- and would be facing stiff competition.... from people who are good at boats.
Hey man Courland took Tobago. No reason the Moroccans can't settle a tiny West Indian Island for a couple generations to grow sugar and chocolate if the British have naval dominance and let them.
 
Courland was a Baltic country with deep Hanseatic ties. Morocco spent 500 years fighting to reconquer ports from Iberians.
 
Courlands colony also barely lasted; no way Spain tolerates Islam and their nearest enemy having a Caribbean presence
 
Courland's colony is similar to Scotland's lil' colony Caledonia around Panama in that they were poorly thought-out ventures that failed rather quickly and had little to no lasting impact. And even then, Courland and Scotland had advantages that Morocco just did not. To get a Morocco that gets the "glory" (if you can call mass genocide, slavery, and exploitation for the cause of creating an empire so unstable that when it shit the bed it virtually guaranteed Spain would never be a first-rate power again glory) of Spain requires, essentially, a very different Morocco to the point it probably wouldn't be what we think of as Morocco.
 
I had an idea for a TL in which the King of Portugal survives the battle of three kings and is captured. The moroccans demand beside gold also some tech, like shipbuilding, for his release.
Also Almansur does not spend the gold on palaces but into strenthening the state and infrastructure.
A stable Morocco could mean that the english would be more willing to enter an alliance against Spain.
 

Deleted member 67076

What if the Marinid Dinasty survives and stabilizes its control over Algeria and Tunisia?
Would help immensely given they were much more naval based and competent than the next few dynasties but controlling the entire Maghreb is borderline impossible for long periods of time due to both geographic reasons (crossing the Atlas mountains every campaigning season, hard to monitor governors) and political (nomads always messing things up, new walis want to form their own dynasties, most money is made with the Saharan trade, loyalty has to be constantly rewarded which usually requires frequent patronage, etc)

However, you still need to shift Morocco away from being a principality land based power focused on Saharan trade and also one that was immensely decentralized and nomadic.
 
Lots of Morocco talk lately.

Saving the Marinids likely won't help; at that point Christian Spain is too strong and too invested in the Reconquista to not beat on Morocco's port infrastructure.

You'd have to go way, way back to build a Morocco capable of matching the glory of Spain - possibly even to the Idrisids. Half the problem with Morocco is that it couldn't keep its stuff together in the Middle Ages. The entire place was used as a troop factory by the likes of al-Andalus, until the Almoravids showed up, bringing their own problems. Morocco never seems to be able to maintain a stable structure, in part because of the confluence of rigorists like the Almoravids and Almohads, of tribal interests and of forces interested in using the Berbers as their own personal army. Basically Morocco spends decades if not centuries getting wrecked by destructive wars with someone, whether it's the Fatimids, or the Caliphate of Córdoba coming in and kicking the Idrisids' house down, or Castile, or the Almohads, or just typical Zenata-on-Sanhaja-on-Barghawata-on-name-any-other-tribe-ever violence.

Posit a successful Berber Revolt in the 700s which stabilizes Iberia and Morocco as elements of sort of a greater Berber Empire centred on the Maghreb. You could likely lose Iberia over the years but go from there with a Berber empire with a history of centuries of self-rule by the time sailors start discovering the New World. But that's about how far back you'd have to go to fix Morocco, since the Almoravids and Almohads really aren't seafarers and the Marinids are just too late to avert a militant super-Spain.



The other factor you'll need to fix is giving Morocco a reason to use boats when they can just rely on the trans-Saharan land routes for most of their trade needs. Disrupting those trade routes early - possibly some kind of super-Songhai wank devouring everything in its path? - would give Morocco more incentive to start actually sailing to places like Mali. Once you do that, you stand a good chance of a Moroccan ship discovering Brazil the second they try to go further south and swing out a bit too far while trying to avoid the Bight of Benin.
 
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