Morocco in an Axis Victories World

This may have been gone over in countless threads inolving Axis victories, but there is something specific I would like to know about. What exacty would happen to Morocco? Would it have to wait until after or during the war for change? Would the obvious choice of Spain need to psychically wrest it from Vichy France or would they need to trade one of the Canaries like the Germans wanted? Would the Germans go with their old plan of keeping it in heir own economic orbit? Would Spain annex Tangier to Spain proper? Would the Spanish and French Protectorates unfiy into one protectorate, or would Franco's thoughts that the peoples south of the Pyrenees and west of the Atlas Mountains were only seperated by religion and the Straits of Gibralter? Please give all theories or examples from economic planners, cartographers, diplomats, and propagandists with as much information as you can remember or find.
 
No matter if Franco did enter the war in this scenario, it is pretty probable that Spain would get it in the case of Axis victory, if anything just for the "rebalance of power/clipping the wings of the defeated" case.
 
No matter if Franco did enter the war in this scenario, it is pretty probable that Spain would get it in the case of Axis victory, if anything just for the "rebalance of power/clipping the wings of the defeated" case.

The Germans had seemed to have early reservations about it, partially for economic reasons and partially to not cause all the Vichy colonies to defect. Plus Hitler apparently wanted the Franquists and Falangists overthrown after WWII. They made demands for French Cameroon(old German colony), wanted the French Protectorate of Morocco, and then Portugal and old American colonies... I should look up the section of Hitler's Second Book again to see his thoughts on tha Alliance with Spain he mentioned. Anyways, he seemed to think that the Republicns had not actually been communists, were very hard workers, and had been trying to overthrow the decadence and clergy control of the Spain. He wasn't far off. Not that that has much to do with the topic at hand.
 
This may have been gone over in countless threads inolving Axis victories, but there is something specific I would like to know about. What exacty would happen to Morocco? Would it have to wait until after or during the war for change? Would the obvious choice of Spain need to psychically wrest it from Vichy France or would they need to trade one of the Canaries like the Germans wanted? Would the Germans go with their old plan of keeping it in heir own economic orbit? Would Spain annex Tangier to Spain proper? Would the Spanish and French Protectorates unfiy into one protectorate, or would Franco's thoughts that the peoples south of the Pyrenees and west of the Atlas Mountains were only seperated by religion and the Straits of Gibralter? Please give all theories or examples from economic planners, cartographers, diplomats, and propagandists with as much information as you can remember or find.

This is impossible to answer without defining 'Axis Victory'. The fate of Morocco - heck any state - is dependent on the form that 'victory' takes. Please define the victory of the Axis.

Mike Turcotte
 
This is impossible to answer without defining 'Axis Victory'. The fate of Morocco - heck any state - is dependent on the form that 'victory' takes. Please define the victory of the Axis.

Mike Turcotte

I should have been clearer, but I do not know, which is why I asked if they would need to invade or not. I am mostly asking for information people have on what was thought and planned, and what they would do.
 
Why would Spain want Morocco after the Rif War(1921-26)?

It took several years and 300,000 troops to end that war and France, not Spain, did the heavy lifting with 250,000 of the troops involved.
 
Why would Spain want Morocco after the Rif War(1921-26)?

It took several years and 300,000 troops to end that war and France, not Spain, did the heavy lifting with 250,000 of the troops involved.

Politics, of course. Besides, the Rifians had proved to be very good soldier when fighting the Republicans.
 
Why, if Hitler is the master of Europe, wouldn't he pressure his subordinates into allowing Arab unity?
 
Why, if Hitler is the master of Europe, wouldn't he pressure his subordinates into allowing Arab unity?

The Arabs would be lucky to not be exterminated; they were a Semetic race, just like the Jews...

I think the fate of Morocco depends on how Hitler is feeling. If he wants to strengthen Spain (and especially if Spain had been on the Axis), then he might give them Morocco as a reward for the war. Alternately, he might think Gibraltar is enough for the Spanish and let Vichy France keep Morocco
 
Morocco would either remain French (under a collaborationist regime) or become Spanish if Franco entered the war at a time when Spanish help would be more helpful than potential French help. Hitler was torn between who to accomodate. Franco's Spain was a more likely ally than Vichy France, but France was a better future ally that Hitler did not want to alienate needlessly. France already had a lot of influence and expatriates living in Morocco.

Hitler didn't give two figs about Arab unity. He only saw Arab nationalism as useful to distracting the British. Hitler always saw the Mediterranean as part of Italy's living space, not Germany's. His only concern there would be to settle any disputes between Italy, France, and Spain so that there'd be no war and Germany could maintain as much influence over the three as possible.
 
Morocco is not Arab, most of which went to the Italian sphere anyways.

Morocco has a large Berber community, but it is most certainly a culturally Arab country. Just consider the country's name for itself and the significance of said name in Arab geography.

Morocco would either remain French (under a collaborationist regime) or become Spanish if Franco entered the war at a time when Spanish help would be more helpful than potential French help. Hitler was torn between who to accomodate. Franco's Spain was a more likely ally than Vichy France, but France was a better future ally that Hitler did not want to alienate needlessly. France already had a lot of influence and expatriates living in Morocco.

Hitler didn't give two figs about Arab unity. He only saw Arab nationalism as useful to distracting the British. Hitler always saw the Mediterranean as part of Italy's living space, not Germany's. His only concern there would be to settle any disputes between Italy, France, and Spain so that there'd be no war and Germany could maintain as much influence over the three as possible.

It is naive to think that Hitler's "allies" will remain independent if the Nazis win the war. The utter uselessness of Italy will be apparent soon enough, and in no way could Italy really police the sphere it sought. It is true that Hitler cared little about points South of the Med, but that's precisely why a racialist of the Hitler sort would be inclined to support a large Arab state; it's a barrier to the inevitable decline of colonial empires. Italy has no ability to oppose Hitler, and if it tries, it will Fail, and lose Ethiopia too if it has not already in the situation presented.
 
Last edited:

Cook

Banned
The question, as others have pointed out, depends on the nature of the Axis victory; the extent of the victory and the means of winning it.

Franco had asked for Gibraltar, French Morocco and half of Algeria as his price for entry into the war.

Mussolini wanted Nice, Corsica, Tunisia and French Somaliland (Djibouti).

Laval and Darlan were busy ingratiating themselves to Hitler as much as possible to strengthen France’s position in the New European Order and in the hope that Hitler would protect the French Empire against poaching by the other Fascist powers as well as that of Great Britain. Laval had hoped that France’s position in the New Europe would be second only to Germany’s.
 
Morocco is not Arab, most of which went to the Italian sphere anyways.

Actually Morocco is Berber-Arab, it's always historically been under the Muslim sphere of influence and a part of the greatest Arab empires of history.

"The Arabs would be lucky to not be exterminated; they were a Semetic race, just like the Jews..."

See... even Hitler's racism (which is already insane and deluded) wasn't logical. He picked and chose races he loved or hated based on their history or disregarded ones that did not fit his warped and deranged worldview for any reason.

Arab emnity towards Jews does exist at this point and there were (and sadly still are) Arabs who think Hitler's Holocaust was great. Just because they are fellow semites doesn't mean Hitler necessarily hates them, especially if they, a proud "warrior" culture hate Jews as well (Hitler respected warrior cultures a ton, the Jew hating goes without saying). Hitler sets up Arab client states in the Middle East, reacts violently if they try and get out of line in the new order of things, but is otherwise peaches and cream to his Arab friends.
 
Actually Morocco is Berber-Arab, it's always historically been under the Muslim sphere of influence and a part of the greatest Arab empires of history.

"The Arabs would be lucky to not be exterminated; they were a Semetic race, just like the Jews..."

See... even Hitler's racism (which is already insane and deluded) wasn't logical. He picked and chose races he loved or hated based on their history or disregarded ones that did not fit his warped and deranged worldview for any reason.

Arab emnity towards Jews does exist at this point and there were (and sadly still are) Arabs who think Hitler's Holocaust was great. Just because they are fellow semites doesn't mean Hitler necessarily hates them, especially if they, a proud "warrior" culture hate Jews as well (Hitler respected warrior cultures a ton, the Jew hating goes without saying). Hitler sets up Arab client states in the Middle East, reacts violently if they try and get out of line in the new order of things, but is otherwise peaches and cream to his Arab friends.

My post was very unclear, looking back at it. I meant that most of the Arab world was going to be in Italy's sphere of influence. As for the Berbers, Himmler believed that they were Aryan. Hitler probably wouldn't have cared much about the Arabs so long as they did the hard work in finding petroleum. As for semetism, Hitler would probably not care to much so long as either every person with Jewish blood was handed over. Or maybe sell them to the Muslims as slaves, as I saw in one tijmeline. Hitler liked the mindset of Islam, talkking about how the Christians robbed the world by not letting them integrate Europe. Still, Morocco would have been an excellent and profitable enough area, which no doubt would have had the Morrocans, Italians, Arab Unionists, Frenchmen, and Spanish wanting it. If Spain got it it might need to do what it did during the Spanish Civil War, being to give the rights and output of many major mines and industrial cities to Germany. It will all really depend on how much the Germans like the governments of the above and wether Rosenberg, Hausehop, or Himmler have a say in it. the Axis of Himmler-Rippentrop-Rosenberg and the heads of Flanders, Norway, and the like might have enough pull to keep it partially independent.
 
The question, as others have pointed out, depends on the nature of the Axis victory; the extent of the victory and the means of winning it.

Franco had asked for Gibraltar, French Morocco and half of Algeria as his price for entry into the war.

Mussolini wanted Nice, Corsica, Tunisia and French Somaliland (Djibouti).

Laval and Darlan were busy ingratiating themselves to Hitler as much as possible to strengthen France’s position in the New European Order and in the hope that Hitler would protect the French Empire against poaching by the other Fascist powers as well as that of Great Britain. Laval had hoped that France’s position in the New Europe would be second only to Germany’s.

All questions of such that I am most eager to hear. It would be very useful to know every take and every changed thoughts from the periods of time.
Franco and various Falangists also were talking about French Congo, French Cameroons, Portugal, and some of the old colonies in the Carribean. Not sure what they thought would happen to Portugal's colonies. They likely would have also liked to move the northern border up a bit, grabbing the last of the Catalans and Basques, along with everything inbetween. The demand for over a hundred thousand bushles of wheat, a fair deal of oil, and the refusal to consider a permant cession of their islands(be it the Canaries or off the coast of Kamerun), and their constaant nagging got on the nerves of the Germans, though it is only one sourse I found that from. I know that the Spanish wanted ORan and some more of Algeria, but who exactly wanted half of it? Would it be connected to the claims of Greater Morocco.
Hitler also wanted British Somaliland, Malta, the Italian speaaking part of Switzerland, and perhaps the Balerics(depending on the yeaar). He also apparently was making suggestions of invading Algeria, Egypt, and Sudan. I really should try getting that "What he Wanted, What he would Give" Series another go.
Laval was of course mistaken, as Hitler intended to annex everything in France that used to be in the HRE, with the toyed but forgoted ide of Gaus in Normandy and Brittany.
 
Morocco has a large Berber community, but it is most certainly a culturally Arab country. Just consider the country's name for itself and the significance of said name in Arab geography.



It is naive to think that Hitler's "allies" will remain independent if the Nazis win the war. The utter uselessness of Italy will be apparent soon enough, and in no way could Italy really police the sphere it sought. It is true that Hitler cared little about points South of the Med, but that's precisely why a racialist of the Hitler sort would be inclined to support a large Arab state; it's a barrier to the inevitable decline of colonial empires. Italy has no ability to oppose Hitler, and if it tries, it will Fail, and lose Ethiopia too if it has not already in the situation presented.

Certainly Arabs there from the past, though I think they diverged a bit, what with quasi independent BErber states and the Arabs under the Ottomans
When the usefulness of the Italians became to come into question the linguistic minded members of Hitler's circle went back to the plans of getting the former Kingdom of Lombardy-Venetia, though apparently with Venice as an autonomous tourists trap. Seems to make sense if they would simply set the border as the Po River and . I was making a map showing Hitler's plans for expanding Banat at the expense of it's neighbors. Know where I should post talk about that sort of thing? I'm getting terribly off track in my own thread.
 
It is naive to think that Hitler's "allies" will remain independent if the Nazis win the war. The utter uselessness of Italy will be apparent soon enough, and in no way could Italy really police the sphere it sought. It is true that Hitler cared little about points South of the Med, but that's precisely why a racialist of the Hitler sort would be inclined to support a large Arab state; it's a barrier to the inevitable decline of colonial empires. Italy has no ability to oppose Hitler, and if it tries, it will Fail, and lose Ethiopia too if it has not already in the situation presented.

There's a lot of non-sequiters here. Youa re basically saying that Hitler will definitely consider a large Arab state in North Africa to be essential to his foreign policy, and that he will invest heavily to create it against the wishes of Italy, France, and Spain. In other words, for something of dubious value in an area of the world he does not consider to be part of Germany's sphere of influence, he will antagonize old allies and a great power.

This is nonsense.

Hitler is not going to fabricate a large Arab state in North Africa. France has been in possession of Algeria since the 1830s. Italy has plans to completely assimilate Libya (with a very small native population) as part of Italy. Morocco is isolated and disputed between Spain and France. All those areas are clearly a part of a European society. Hitler is not going to wrench them away as part of some bizarre Arab state building scheme. Who exactly does he expect to rule there?

In the Middle East proper - far away from Morocco, Hitler might tolerate some large Arab state. But those areas are theoretically independent anyway, either being League of Nation mandates or client states of the British and French, not direct colonies or part of the metropolitan country. And what independent states do exist are going to have very different ideas of who should lead any theoretical united Arab state. The Hashemites will think it should be them. Egyptians will want themselves to be the head. If the French can be convinced to abandon Syria (with perhaps still controlling Lebanon), then Syrian republicans will see themselves as the leader. About the only thing I do see is Palestine/Jordan joining someone else.

The only thing I see Hitler possibly intervening in is preventing Egypt from becoming an Italian colony. He would probably agree that the British ownership of Suez be given to Italy, but the status of Italy in Egypt could be up to dispute depending on how much direct control Italy wants, and how much trouble Egyptian nationalism could cause.
 
Certainly Arabs there from the past, though I think they diverged a bit, what with quasi independent BErber states and the Arabs under the Ottomans
When the usefulness of the Italians became to come into question the linguistic minded members of Hitler's circle went back to the plans of getting the former Kingdom of Lombardy-Venetia, though apparently with Venice as an autonomous tourists trap. Seems to make sense if they would simply set the border as the Po River and . I was making a map showing Hitler's plans for expanding Banat at the expense of it's neighbors. Know where I should post talk about that sort of thing? I'm getting terribly off track in my own thread.

Well, if Italy gets dismembered, that means it won't have colonies. A general thread here might work, or one in Books and Media might be good too. Ask a mod.
 
Top