Mormons without the Mexican Cession

So, in a TL where Mexico never cedes California, Nevada, Arizona, Utah, New Mexico, etc, to the US, what impact does that have on the LDS church and its settlement, expansion, and practices such as polygamy?
 
That'd make the Mormons very, very interesting.

There would definitely be at least a few attempts to gain independence by them. While I would say they have an advantage, being well organized and in a desert far from Mexico's power bases, that doesn't guarantee they would win and this PoD seems to imply they don't.

I could see a lot more American support for the Mormons, seeing them as Americans who are forced to live under a foreign regime. You'll probably even see nationalist partisans assisting any Mormon revolt financially or by taking up arms themselves.

It'd probably end up as a semi-independent region constantly agitating for independence ala Quebec or be repressively occupied over its knack for wanting independence, but assuming the power that Mexico must have holding the West Coast ITTL and the fact that it'd be hard to heavily occupy a mountainy desert region like that, the former is more likely.
 
Polygamy was partially brought in due to the large amount of women among the Mormons. I think it was less about the 'oh I have a harem' thing some think of when they here about it, and more about a man taking responsibilty for them and getting help in return. Polygamy certainly wouldn't be viable longterm, given how boys and girls are born at the same rate. Today there are some ultra-extremist/old-fashioned (I don't know what term to use) Mormons who have polygamy as a high priority, for which they take the wives of some membrs to give to others as well as dropping off boys in Reno or Vegas to keep up the skewed gender ratio. As both those things should make obvious, this is NOT something most Mormons condone. I imagine they are something like Branch Davidians, minus the high explosives. Now, what if we can find a way for some Spaniards (actual Spaniards. Not many Mexicans settling up there yet.), some tribes, and whoever else comes along to start marrying into the Mormons... I think religion would be a bit issue. Not the polygamy so much as the polytheism, though I doubt is many from Mexico would know about that. Anyways, colonies love to have a surplus of women. Perhaps some are convinced to move to California or some other area. I think it may have been that there were a lot of ex-prositutes among the Mormons (I don't know), but I think we can safely say that about zilch of the women would go for anything like that. They came that far for their beliefs and should be happy to marry, but only so long as they are treated well and able to teach their belives to their children. So if we get the Mormons out of Utah (even if only a fraction) we can get some communities in California from which they may grow. When prospectors come along (I doubt the Mexicans will be able to stop too many when Forty-Niners swamp the area) we should have a reasonable amount of industrious workers farming, milling, etc. I think it is possible they get along with some tribes and whatever Spaniards or Mexicans are around, especially if they tell them to be wary of the Americans. And if not? Well, California was already wanting to go independent from distant Mexico for a while. Maybe be they do and they have a large amount of Mormons making swing votes during elections. Polygamy may be done away with (when was it introduced?) if farmers, lumberjacks, miners, etc convert to Mormonism.
 
I'm not sure the Mormorns would still move into modern-day Utah if Mexico doesn't give the land to the US.

To start with, the Mormons moved in the middle of the war, when it was clear the land was gonna become American. I don't think the Mormons wanted to actually leave the country, no? So if the land doesn't change hands they might not even go there (or perhaps there's not even a war to begin with). They would probably simply move elsewhere. Maybe into Oregon? Or was the salt lake region really that important for them to move into, no matter what?
 
I'm not sure the Mormorns would still move into modern-day Utah if Mexico doesn't give the land to the US.

To start with, the Mormons moved in the middle of the war, when it was clear the land was gonna become American. I don't think the Mormons wanted to actually leave the country, no? So if the land doesn't change hands they might not even go there (or perhaps there's not even a war to begin with). They would probably simply move elsewhere. Maybe into Oregon? Or was the salt lake region really that important for them to move into, no matter what?

Wikipedia made it seem like they did want to leave the US.

Mormon Pioneers

“According to church belief, God inspired Brigham Young, Joseph Smith's successor as President of the Church, to call for the Saints (as church members call themselves) to organize and head west, beyond the western frontier of the United States (into what was then Mexico, though the U.S. Army had already captured New Mexico and California in late 1846). During the winter of 1846-47, Latter-day Saint leaders in Winter Quarters and Iowa laid plans for the migration of the large number of Saints, their equipment, and their livestock. It was here that Brigham Young first met Thomas L. Kane, a non-Mormon from Philadelphia with deep personal connections to the Polkadministration. Kane obtained permission for the Mormons to winter on Indian territory, and the site was originally called Kanesville. Brigham Young continued to trust Kane throughout his own lifetime, particularly as an intermediary with the often hostile Federal government. This major undertaking was a significant test of leadership capability and the existing administrative network of the recently restructured Church. For his role in the migration, Brigham Young is sometimes referred to as the "American Moses."

Brigham Young personally reviewed all available information on the Salt Lake Valley and the Great Basin, consulting with mountain men and trappers who traveled through Winter Quarters, and meeting with Father Pierre-Jean De Smet, a Jesuit missionary familiar with the Great Basin. The wary Young insisted the Mormons should settle in a location no one else wanted, and felt the Salt Lake Valley met that requirement but would provide the Saints with many advantages as well.”
 
"No one else wanted", huh. Hmm, I think this needs a more detailed scenario.

After all, there's various ways for "No Mexican Cession" to happen. And some can include a Mexico that was able to settle the north, so the area would already be out of the "no one else wanted" condition.
 
"No one else wanted", huh. Hmm, I think this needs a more detailed scenario.

After all, there's various ways for "No Mexican Cession" to happen. And some can include a Mexico that was able to settle the north, so the area would already be out of the "no one else wanted" condition.

Could have a scenario where Mexico defeated Texas during the Texian Rebellion? Or Texians didn’t rebel for whatever reason. Mexico wouldn’t have settled all of the land 10-15 years later. So Mormons would still potentially have a lot of empty land to move in to.
 
Could have a scenario where Mexico defeated Texas during the Texian Rebellion? Or Texians didn’t rebel for whatever reason. Mexico wouldn’t have settled all of the land 10-15 years later. So Mormons would still potentially have a lot of empty land to move in to.

That's possible. Not sure on a Texas defeat, since there's the danger of a future rebellion or an outright US intervention (assuming Mexico itself remains the same). No Texan rebellion could work, as this eliminates a way for US to gain OTL's Casus Belli, but then how to get them to not rebel, or avoid the US from declaring war through another way?
 
That's possible. Not sure on a Texas defeat, since there's the danger of a future rebellion or an outright US intervention (assuming Mexico itself remains the same). No Texan rebellion could work, as this eliminates a way for US to gain OTL's Casus Belli, but then how to get them to not rebel, or avoid the US from declaring war through another way?

Probably have the 1835 shift away from a federal structure toward a centralized structure not happen. The centralization of the conservatives and the rise of Santa Ana were a big part of why Texas and other parts of Mexico rebelled.
 
Wikipedia made it seem like they did want to leave the US.

Mormon Pioneers

“According to church belief, God inspired Brigham Young, Joseph Smith's successor as President of the Church, to call for the Saints (as church members call themselves) to organize and head west, beyond the western frontier of the United States (into what was then Mexico, though the U.S. Army had already captured New Mexico and California in late 1846). During the winter of 1846-47, Latter-day Saint leaders in Winter Quarters and Iowa laid plans for the migration of the large number of Saints, their equipment, and their livestock. It was here that Brigham Young first met Thomas L. Kane, a non-Mormon from Philadelphia with deep personal connections to the Polkadministration. Kane obtained permission for the Mormons to winter on Indian territory, and the site was originally called Kanesville. Brigham Young continued to trust Kane throughout his own lifetime, particularly as an intermediary with the often hostile Federal government. This major undertaking was a significant test of leadership capability and the existing administrative network of the recently restructured Church. For his role in the migration, Brigham Young is sometimes referred to as the "American Moses."

Brigham Young personally reviewed all available information on the Salt Lake Valley and the Great Basin, consulting with mountain men and trappers who traveled through Winter Quarters, and meeting with Father Pierre-Jean De Smet, a Jesuit missionary familiar with the Great Basin. The wary Young insisted the Mormons should settle in a location no one else wanted, and felt the Salt Lake Valley met that requirement but would provide the Saints with many advantages as well.”


I read in Men to Match My Mountains that when a shipload of Saints sailed into San Francisco Bay and saw the Stars and Stripes flying over the port, one of them exploded "It's that d----d flag again".
 
I read in Men to Match My Mountains that when a shipload of Saints sailed into San Francisco Bay and saw the Stars and Stripes flying over the port, one of them exploded "It's that d----d flag again".

It would be interesting to see how a more Mormon California under Mexican control develops
 
Probably have the 1835 shift away from a federal structure toward a centralized structure not happen. The centralization of the conservatives and the rise of Santa Ana were a big part of why Texas and other parts of Mexico rebelled.

There's also Manifest Destiny to consider. Americans by the thousands were moving into Texas, many illegally even, driven by the whole "westward expansion" mindset. That's bound to lead to conflict and the US taking over anyway, Centralist takeover or not.
 
Ditto the California Gold Rush, and ditto the Mormon settlement itself. Even though the Mormons aren't trying hard to break off from Mexico and become part of the US, they are filling an area with English speakers who follow Anglo-American laws and customs, and their communication and trade routes are all with the (American) East.

I think for this to work you need (1) a very federalized Mexico with a de facto autonomous Anglo north, and (2) some reason why these places never try to become part of the U.S. or even declare independence--maybe a Great Britain or some other heft foreign power intervenes, maybe Mexico basically lets these places be independent de facto and they don't join the US because of tariff concerns or something?
 
(2) some reason why these places never try to become part of the U.S. or even declare independence
I can get you that much for Deseret: The Mormons and the United States continue to be hostile to each other, and the Mormons don't declare independence because they want to keep Mexican protection against a hostile America.

Texas and California are more difficult, though.
 
Interestingly, the Mormon Corridor ran pretty solidly into SE Idaho and SW Wyoming. And it is pretty natural for that to happen. So if this POD somehow works (I'm still struggling to come up with a plausible way for it to happen), you have a Mormon community whose core area is pretty solidly split between two countries.
 
Thinking it a little more, perhaps it is possible for Mormons to still settle around the Salt Lake even with a stronger Mexico that can settle the north. Because simply put, from the 1820's to the 1840's (I would think it would still take until then for the Mormons to move there) is still not enough time to reach the far off places like the Salt Lake, so it can be plausible for the place to still be desireable. Then just have the US never attempt to take over (unplausible) or outright fail against a stonger Mexico (more plausible than the previous option at least), and viola, Mormons moving like in OTL but without the US owning the land.
 
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