Mormonism enters the world stage as a major religion by 2010

[Hnau]

I'm thinking a membership of some 210 million by 2010, which is 15x its OTL numbers. So how would this be accomplished? I'm thinking all of its controversial aspects being removed from the get go would give it a much better name. I'm talking about polygamy and black discrimination... a non-polygamous Mormonism with an openly abolitionist platform as well. What do you think? Just the seed of an idea.

 

[Valdemar II]

I'm thinking a membership of some 210 million by 2010, which is 15x its OTL numbers. So how would this be accomplished? I'm thinking all of its controversial aspects being removed from the get go would give it a much better name. I'm talking about polygamy and black discrimination... a non-polygamous Mormonism with an openly abolitionist platform as well. What do you think? Just the seed of an idea.

I can't see it, very few religions has so many members, and none of them younger than a thousand years.

 

[Hnau]

Nevertheless, that's the goal, and I want to get as close to it as I can. No doubt the removal of these two controversies would definitely help the Church out.

This graph will show you that exponential growth only began in the mid-19th century, after the LDS Church had reached enough of a critical mass and stability to begin serious missionary work, though the Baby Boom helped as well. Moving the curve back just ten years could lead to double membership by 2010.

I just think it would be interesting to see Mormonism, which is very distinct from 'normal' Christianity, to be a player on a world stage.

 

[The_Tsar]

You would want to have Mormon controversies in Utah like the Mountain Meadows massacre never to have happend. The Church of Latter-Day Saints probably would have become more popular, and maybe a reasonable amount of followers would be in existence by 2010.

 

[Nietzsche]

You'll never see a religion as strict(religion tends to be strict by default, but mormonism is strict even by those standards) reach a "World player" level. And, it's far, far too young. No where near enough time to reach even 100 million followers without keeping polygamy. Then, you should, in theory, be able to simply breed your way to that number.

 

[Hnau]

I had a conversation with someone on this topic a while back on the board. I said that polygamy helped the Mormons build their membership, but he gave me some good data that showed that polygamous relationships actually yield about the same if not less offspring than monogamous relationships. I'll have to look back in the archives to find the sources.

However, just imagine an LDS Church without polygamy, so that it doesn't face the Utah War and other persecution by the US government until 1890. And no schisms either. It could help growth out a good deal. The Mormons might just remain in Missouri/Illinois, and Joseph Smith might live longer. These are just guesses, but removing polygamy would help the Church out a great deal, just at a glance.

 

[Nietzsche]

I had a conversation with someone on this topic a while back on the board. I said that polygamy helped the Mormons build their membership, but he gave me some good data that showed that polygamous relationships actually yield about the same if not less offspring than monogamous relationships. I'll have to look back in the archives to find the sources.

However, just imagine an LDS Church without polygamy, so that it doesn't face the Utah War and other persecution by the US government until 1890. And no schisms either. It could help growth out a good deal. The Mormons might just remain in Missouri/Illinois, and Joseph Smith might live longer. These are just guesses, but removing polygamy would help the Church out a great deal, just at a glance.

If you take out the polygamy, all you have, really, is a secretive Catholic-Church esque religion with some polytheist overtones and a very different representation of Jesus and the Israelites. It'd still be a fringe religion. It's too secretive.

 

[NomadicSky]

I think Mormonism already is.

Think about this currently there are more Mormons in the world than Jews.

Polygamy should be legalized if gay marriage is. I doubt many if any LDS would bring the practice back if it was.

However if one discriminated alternate lifestyle becomes a norm why not?

I see nothing wrong with it so long as all sides are consenting adults.

 

[Lord Grattan]

A Tuscarora Indian discovers the "golden tablets" early in the 1700's and Mormonism speads, 1st among the Eastern tribes, then among British colonists, French traders, and then the British military in North America.

Perhaps John Swift discovers the "golden tablets" during his 1st journey to what is today Wayne County, New York in 1779. This would give the religion an earlier start than in OTL as well.

 

[Hnau]

I see nothing wrong with it so long as all sides are consenting adults.

Different topic, but I agree, even though I am Mormon. The exception is A) allowing non-traditional partnerships to raise kids, which I believe can become damaging to children, and B) forcing religions to recognize non-traditional partnerships as reasonable. You shouldn't be able to force people's religious views to agree with the law. Let non-traditional partners do what they want, but let people continue to believe sodomy is sinful (says in the Bible, then again, it says a lot of things are sinful).

A Tuscarora Indian discovers the "golden tablets" early in the 1700's and Mormonism speads, 1st among the Eastern tribes, then among British colonists, French traders, and then the British military in North America.

That'd be interesting. The Indian would have the knowledge of Christianity beforehand, though, and I don't know how well Anglo-Americans would accept an Amerindian belief. I like the John Swift idea better.

 

[Berra]

I dubt a religion can be sucessful without beeing controversial. I can't come up with one not involved in conflicts. So perhaps a even more controversial faith.

 

[Nietzsche]

Different topic, but I agree, even though I am Mormon. The exception is A) allowing non-traditional partnerships to raise kids, which I believe can become damaging to children

Not to derail the topic, but unless you have facts to support that, don't mention it.

That'd be interesting. The Indian would have the knowledge of Christianity beforehand, though, and I don't know how well Anglo-Americans would accept an Amerindian belief. I like the John Swift idea better.

Ehhh, you've still got the same problem. Whoever finds the tablets(let's run with it for a moment) has to also produce them, or you have the same problem OTL Mormonism has today. Looks like a giant scam. "I had these golden tablets written by a man of god...that I lost, but I translated them first. From a language I know nothing about, and a civilization no one has ever heard of before"

Surely, you see the problem here.

 

[interpoltomo]

An openly abolitionist platform would kill it in 19th century America outside of parts of New England so that wouldn't help at all.

 

[Hnau]

An openly abolitionist platform would kill it in 19th century America outside of parts of New England so that wouldn't help at all.

Well, they might be pushed farther west for such beliefs, but at least blacks would be much more open to join the religion, and they would be commended for this stance.

Not to derail the topic, but unless you have facts to support that, don't mention it.

Alright, I won't, my friend, let this be the last mention of it.

Ehhh, you've still got the same problem. Whoever finds the tablets(let's run with it for a moment) has to also produce them, or you have the same problem OTL Mormonism has today. Looks like a giant scam. "I had these golden tablets written by a man of god...that I lost, but I translated them first. From a language I know nothing about, and a civilization no one has ever heard of before"

Well, we could say that in a scientific view of the world, the atheist view of it, evidence points to the idea that there were no plates and it was just a conspiracy, so there were none to produce. From the Mormon viewpoint, if the plates were shown to the public, converts wouldn't be acting on faith, but evidence, which destroys the idea of using faith to progress spiritually. Either way, there is no way to produce the plates.

By the way, Joseph Smith never lost the plates, but gave them to an angelic messenger who took them into Heaven.

 

[interpoltomo]

A Mormon faith which actively recruits blacks and spouts abolitionist doctrine is going to be a very hard sell to mainstream 19th century America and will likely not get even the numbers of converts it got in the real world. Utah would probably look more like New Hampshire or Vermont due to a more liberal founding population and have more blacks who came as converts.

 

[Nietzsche]

Well, we could say that in a scientific view of the world, the atheist view of it, evidence points to the idea that there were no plates and it was just a conspiracy, so there were none to produce. From the Mormon viewpoint, if the plates were shown to the public, converts wouldn't be acting on faith, but evidence, which destroys the idea of using faith to progress spiritually. Either way, there is no way to produce the plates.

By the way, Joseph Smith never lost the plates, but gave them to an angelic messenger who took them into Heaven.

Making the story sound more fantastical doesn't help. And you're trying to convert by faith alone? Well, no wonder your numbers are so low. Most other forms of religion(Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Zoroastrianism, ect) find, use, and want to find more physical evidence of their faith, to show the world their form of truth(right or wrong).

I'm sorry, but the average person just isn't capable of producing that much blind trust. That's why you've only got 15 million members.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

I can't see it, very few religions has so many members, and none of them younger than a thousand years.

Firstly: define 'religion'. Mormons would, of course, claim that they are Christians, not their own separate religion. Most Christians consider them to be, at best, heterodox. Still, for the purposes of this discussion, let's consider some branches of Christianity to be distinct.

Protestantism, if you want to lump all Protestants into a single group, has way more than 200 Million adherents - I don't know the numbers, precisely, but most people in the US count, plus most of northern Europe, plus...

If you want to look at individual denominations, Anglicanism by itself has a significant chunk of those numbers.

The Anglican Communion consists of "over 70 million members" organized in "38 self-governing Churches made up of about 500 dioceses, 30,000 parishes and 64,000 individual congregations in a total of 164 countries. While the Anglican Communion does not rank among the biggest groupings of Christians, it is, after the Roman Catholic Church, arguably the most widespread". [1]
---
[1] 2006 Church of England Year Book. London: Church House Publishing, 2005. "The Anglican Communion", p. 337.

Now, the Anglican communion grew on the foundations of the British Empire, and while much of its growth is happening today in Africa, it's still happening largely in former British colonies.


Mormonism is currently growing by leaps and bounds

News of the Church

There are currently 8,254 meetinghouses internationally, which shows a 10 percent growth rate over the past five years. That trend is also reflected in the United States, where there are 6,361 meetinghouses—or a 9.6 percent growth rate for the same time period.

Gospel Library > Magazines > Ensign > June 2007

 

[Mikey]

What's the fastest growing religion/sect since Joseph Smith? It really might already be the Mormons, which makes it seem like an awful long shot that you can ramp up their growth rate much more. And they're doing it mostly through aggressive proselytizing.

But without the conversions through force of will and fiscal investment, what does Mormonism offer that would sway hundreds of millions of people? The only shot it has, I think, is to become the leading religion of the third world, because in the first, people find themselves awfully well served by mainstream Christianity, if they want religion.

 

[Hazazel]

Making the story sound more fantastical doesn't help. And you're trying to convert by faith alone? Well, no wonder your numbers are so low. Most other forms of religion(Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Zoroastrianism, ect) find, use, and want to find more physical evidence of their faith, to show the world their form of truth(right or wrong).

I'm sorry, but the average person just isn't capable of producing that much blind trust. That's why you've only got 15 million members.

Just 15 million?

I think that's quite well for a religion founded less than 200 years ago.

 

[Mark E.]

I can comment on two issues.

One POD to expand the Mormon faith would have been to keep them in in Nauvoo, IL in 1846. Their temple is not destroyed and the potential arsonists are caught in the act. They are brought to justice and the Mormons gain sympathy and stay. When the civil war depletes the male population in Tennessee and along the lower Mississippi valley, Mormon polygamists make inroads to build their following to the south.

Then there is the issue of the metal plates. I am not a Mormon, but I believe artifacts from a long lost civilization could show up from time to time. They may consist of statues, figurines or illustrated engravings of pre-ice age civilization, including saber toothed tigers and mastadons. Perhaps in 1947, the U.S. military stumbled on a collection of such artifacts near Roswell, New Mexico and after recovering the harvest, promptly conducted bombings and flight exercises to evoke rumors of alien space ships. The little green men were not men, simply figurines. As for why they were relegated to secrecy; well, that is a different subject. Such artifacts might also explain stories of the Seven Cities of Cibola or the Knights Templar.