Mormon Palestine Circa 1870

[wkwillis]

POD the Trent Affair. The US takes the Confederate diplomats off the British ship and refuses to apologise.
1. The UK declares war on the US, followed by it's allies from the Crimean war five years earlier, France and Turkey and Sardinia.
2. Russia declares war on Britain, France, Turkey, and Sardinia in support of the US and because they are still worried about BFTS pushing them around.
3. The Mormons decide this is a good time to secede. Assorted massacres both rumored and real.
4. The US army is four times as big in four months because of the war with the UK, and annexes Canada in a month's campaign. No more food supplies for Britain.
5. The US army not sent out in penny packets to the coast of the Confederacy to enforce the blockade, but outnumbers them three to one on every battlefield simultaneously, pinning them down with one army and flanking them with another.
6. As the US overruns more Confederate territory the Confederate conscripts go home and ethnically cleanse all the families who still have soldiers serving in the Confederate army or support them.
7. The British land a token army at Halifax to defend it.
8. The French support Maximilian against the Mexican insurgents.
9. The US rapidly builds up it's industrial potential, doubling it's production of iron and steel in eighteen months, and then again in the next eighteen months.
10. The US starts building a steamship fleet to defeat the British. The British build one too.
11. Russia conquers the Causcasian parts of Turkey and continues to industrialize with German iron and steel and tools and locomotives.
12. The British merchant marine is destroyed by the US privateers as the British navy destroys the US merchant marine.
13. The US railroad arrives in Halifax. The British forces surrender.
14. The US takes the last port with a rail connection in the south, and the war is generally considered to be over.
15. The US railroad reaches Seattle and work starts on another shipyard in the Pacific.
16. The US railroad reaches Mexico and the French surrender.
17. The US railroad reaches Salt Lake City and the Mormons surrender.
18. The US railroad reaches San Francisco and work starts on another shipyard on the Pacific coast.
19. The US steam fleet captures Bermuda.
20 The US steam fleet captures the Bahamas. All British smuggling ceases and Britain begins negotiating an armistice.
21 Britain out of the war, followed by France, and Sardinia. Only Turkey remains.
22. The US buys the Suez canal and lands an army there.
23. The US conquers the Levant and hands it over to the Mormons who do not convert to a more mainstream branch of Chrisitianity.
24. The US begins to deprt the Mormons from Utah.
25. The Mormons don't go for farms, they go for urban trades and buy food from the local farmers.
26. Now what?

 

[Wendell]

POD the Trent Affair. The US takes the Confederate diplomats off the British ship and refuses to apologise.
1. The UK declares war on the US, followed by it's allies from the Crimean war five years earlier, France and Turkey and Sardinia.
2. Russia declares war on Britain, France, Turkey, and Sardinia in support of the US and because they are still worried about BFTS pushing them around.
3. The Mormons decide this is a good time to secede. Assorted massacres both rumored and real.
4. The US army is four times as big in four months because of the war with the UK, and annexes Canada in a month's campaign. No more food supplies for Britain.
5. The US army not sent out in penny packets to the coast of the Confederacy to enforce the blockade, but outnumbers them three to one on every battlefield simultaneously, pinning them down with one army and flanking them with another.
6. As the US overruns more Confederate territory the Confederate conscripts go home and ethnically cleanse all the families who still have soldiers serving in the Confederate army or support them.
7. The British land a token army at Halifax to defend it.
8. The French support Maximilian against the Mexican insurgents.
9. The US rapidly builds up it's industrial potential, doubling it's production of iron and steel in eighteen months, and then again in the next eighteen months.
10. The US starts building a steamship fleet to defeat the British. The British build one too.
11. Russia conquers the Causcasian parts of Turkey and continues to industrialize with German iron and steel and tools and locomotives.
12. The British merchant marine is destroyed by the US privateers as the British navy destroys the US merchant marine.
13. The US railroad arrives in Halifax. The British forces surrender.
14. The US takes the last port with a rail connection in the south, and the war is generally considered to be over.
15. The US railroad reaches Seattle and work starts on another shipyard in the Pacific.
16. The US railroad reaches Mexico and the French surrender.
17. The US railroad reaches Salt Lake City and the Mormons surrender.
18. The US railroad reaches San Francisco and work starts on another shipyard on the Pacific coast.
19. The US steam fleet captures Bermuda.
20 The US steam fleet captures the Bahamas. All British smuggling ceases and Britain begins negotiating an armistice.
21 Britain out of the war, followed by France, and Sardinia. Only Turkey remains.
22. The US buys the Suez canal and lands an army there.
23. The US conquers the Levant and hands it over to the Mormons who do not convert to a more mainstream branch of Chrisitianity.
24. The US begins to deprt the Mormons from Utah.
25. The Mormons don't go for farms, they go for urban trades and buy food from the local farmers.
26. Now what?

The U.S. may as well take Cyprus since its after everything else What happens with emancipation here, as well as the Quebecois, and the U.S.-Mexico border? Is Lincoln still assassinated?

 

[wkwillis]

The U.S. may as well take Cyprus since its after everything else What happens with emancipation here, as well as the Quebecois, and the U.S.-Mexico border? Is Lincoln still assassinated?

Turkey is weaker than Britain. While the US could make Britain's empire unprofitable by preying on the British merchant marine, it would be similarly vulnerable.
France loses it's Caribbean territories, like Britain, and it's Canadian territories, and it's Mexican territories.
Quebec is given statehood just like the rest of Canada. Thereafter it is ignored. If you want something in a Quebec state courtroom, your lawyer had better speak French. If you want something in a Quebec federal courtroom, your lawyer had better speak English.
Newfoundland winds up as a state. Probably part of the maritime province. Labrador is a territory.
Lincoln backed down on the Trent Affair. I assume that Seward or somebody else is president. Butterflies happen as in OTL.
Emancipation happens at the same time for the same reasons. No change.

 

[Wendell]

Turkey is weaker than Britain. While the US could make Britain's empire unprofitable by preying on the British merchant marine, it would be similarly vulnerable.
France loses it's Caribbean territories, like Britain, and it's Canadian territories, and it's Mexican territories.
Quebec is given statehood just like the rest of Canada. Thereafter it is ignored. If you want something in a Quebec state courtroom, your lawyer had better speak French. If you want something in a Quebec federal courtroom, your lawyer had better speak English.
Newfoundland winds up as a state. Probably part of the maritime province. Labrador is a territory.
Lincoln backed down on the Trent Affair. I assume that Seward or somebody else is president. Butterflies happen as in OTL.
Emancipation happens at the same time for the same reasons. No change.

Then, if we put Seward in the White House, presumably, the Alaska deal still goes through. I'm guessing that the Guianas are taken by the U.S. as well, except for Dutch Guiana? Or, might the Guianas be taken by their larger South American neighbors when it's clear that the U.S. is clearly winning. This would actually be quite a timeline. Presumably, the Spanish-American War will have similar results as OTL, only maybe with the U.S. annexing the colonies outright, intending to make new states?

 

[wkwillis]

Then, if we put Seward in the White House, presumably, the Alaska deal still goes through. I'm guessing that the Guianas are taken by the U.S. as well, except for Dutch Guiana? Or, might the Guianas be taken by their larger South American neighbors when it's clear that the U.S. is clearly winning. This would actually be quite a timeline. Presumably, the Spanish-American War will have similar results as OTL, only maybe with the U.S. annexing the colonies outright, intending to make new states?

Haven't considered that far in advance. I was just thinking of a Mormon Palestine.

 

[Darkest]

Wow, wait... you are adding another zealous religion to the Levant area? Are you crazy? Wow...

So, is the Mormon Church not allowed in the United States of America? Was there a conversion episode where Mormons were forced to convert or die?

How are the numbers looking for the Mormons, now? Are they significantly smaller than before, or are they a still a reasonably large group? Did the Woodruff Manifesto occur (withdrawing the practice of polygamy?) What about the 1978 reversal of the ban on giving Africans the Mormon priesthood? That could cause some conflict, so much closer to Africa. We might have an Official Declaration on the matter much sooner.

Also, any way we can create a map, I think it would help determine the events that occur as a result of all this mayhem.

 

[Weapon M]

This is why I come to AH.COM, for timelines like this.

 

[David S Poepoe]

1. Sardinia? How any alliance NOT having Sardinia as its member can not succeed in conquering the world is beyond me. Are they here to provide comic relief?

10. Isn't this already underway?

12. US Privateers their historical impact is over-glorified.

13-18. Since no dates are given this must be in the 1890s by now.

22. So maybe its 1869 since the US supposedly buys the Suez Canal. Why?

 

[Wendell]

1. Sardinia? How any alliance NOT having Sardinia as its member can not succeed in conquering the world is beyond me. Are they here to provide comic relief?

10. Isn't this already underway?

12. US Privateers their historical impact is over-glorified.

13-18. Since no dates are given this must be in the 1890s by now.

22. So maybe its 1869 since the US supposedly buys the Suez Canal. Why?

That last bit bothered me too. Taking Cyprus is by far more reasonable, and even that is odd.

 

[Scarecrow]

correct me if im wrong, but i dont think Mormons consider Palestine thier holy land. in fact thier holy land is, as written in the book of Mormon, Independence, Missouri!

 

[Darkest]

correct me if im wrong, but i dont think Mormons consider Palestine thier holy land. in fact thier holy land is, as written in the book of Mormon, Independence, Missouri!

You are very right. However, Palestine is considered a holy land, because it was blessed by Jesus Christ for the Jews. Independence, Missouri, however is where Mormons believe the Garden of Eden was before it withered away following the departure of Adam and Eve. They also believe that New Jerusalem will be built in the Latter Days here.

I don't think that being a holy land matters, however. The US just wants to deport the Mormons.

 

[Rabbit Scribe]

So, is the Mormon Church not allowed in the United States of America? Was there a conversion episode where Mormons were forced to convert or die?

It would appear that the answer to both questions is "no."

How are the numbers looking for the Mormons, now? Are they significantly smaller than before, or are they a still a reasonably large group?

What if the British missions of this time period were even more successful? The US doesn't like the Saints, and Great Britain doesn't like the US, and the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Also, the Anglo-American war is going to seriously impact employing the working class of the North of England, from which the Mormon missions drew many of their converts. Fewer raw materials to keep them employed, and no food from Canada to feed them. Perhaps it's too dangerous to gather them to Zion in America due to the attacks on the merchant marine, and Orson Pratt is inspired to start shipping them to Palestine? Sounds to me like something he might come up with, and something the British government might agree to do. That way, the decision to deport the American Saints to Palestine is a bit more organic.

Did the Woodruff Manifesto occur (withdrawing the practice of polygamy?)

You've got nearly twenty years before you need to worry about that. Also, there are plenty of polygamous Muslims in the Levant. Given the coercive measures noted in OTL's Manifesto that wouldn't be present here, I see no reason why it would ever occur in this TL- out of sight, out of mind. However, polygamy is such an impediment to missions, I could see something similar arising, in which polygamy is limited to Bishops, Stake Presidents, and General Authorities.

What about the 1978 reversal of the ban on giving Africans the Mormon priesthood? That could cause some conflict, so much closer to Africa. We might have an Official Declaration on the matter much sooner.

Or, as in OTL, you might never have an "Official Declaration" establishing it in the first place. Elijah Abel is an Elder and Seventy during this period, although he was not allowed to receive his endowment. To be sure, the 19th-century Mormon community isn't going to turn color-blind overnight, but the matter isn't as cut-and-dried as it's sometimes made out.

 

[David S Poepoe]

Anyone notice this is in the wrong forum?

 

[Darkest]

Anyone notice this is in the wrong forum?

Woah, didn't even notice that until you said it. What were you thinking wkwillis?

It would appear that the answer to both questions is "no."

The only reason I ask is because the USA seems so ready to deport them to the Levant, as if they were a heavily persecuted religious group.

What if the British missions of this time period were even more successful? The US doesn't like the Saints, and Great Britain doesn't like the US, and the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Also, the Anglo-American war is going to seriously impact employing the working class of the North of England, from which the Mormon missions drew many of their converts. Fewer raw materials to keep them employed, and no food from Canada to feed them. Perhaps it's too dangerous to gather them to Zion in America due to the attacks on the merchant marine, and Orson Pratt is inspired to start shipping them to Palestine? Sounds to me like something he might come up with, and something the British government might agree to do. That way, the decision to deport the American Saints to Palestine is a bit more organic.

That is a smart idea.

You've got nearly twenty years before you need to worry about that. Also, there are plenty of polygamous Muslims in the Levant. Given the coercive measures noted in OTL's Manifesto that wouldn't be present here, I see no reason why it would ever occur in this TL- out of sight, out of mind. However, polygamy is such an impediment to missions, I could see something similar arising, in which polygamy is limited to Bishops, Stake Presidents, and General Authorities.

Well, first of all, I do not know what year this ATL is at currently, it could be very well 1870 or later. Second of all, the position of Bishop, Stake President, and General Authority is temporary, Bishops usually serve only five years or so... Plus, traditional Latter-Day Saints wouldn't see polygamy as a 'divine reward', if there is polygamy at all it would go to all. If you wanted to limit it, the most you could do maybe is limit it to those that have served a Mission and had their endowments.

 

[wkwillis]

Oops! I haven't been posting since the new division came in and I didn't even think about it. If Ian moves it, no problem.

 

[Rabbit Scribe]

The only reason I ask (if the Mormons are given a “convert or die” ultimatum in the US) is because the USA seems so ready to deport them to the Levant, as if they were a heavily persecuted religious group.

They certainly are heavily persecuted. It seems that the ultimatum was more like “Convert, hit the road, or die.”

(Having Orson Pratt organize a British Mormon exodus to Palestine) is a smart idea.

Thanks very kindly- I agree, if I do say so myself. Wanna make him Prophet, Seer, and Revelator?

Well, first of all, I do not know what year this ATL is at currently, it could be very well 1870 or later.

wkwillis ends the TL in 1870’s. The Manifesto was received in 1890 in OTL. To be sure, this TL is so different that that hardly matters- the Manifesto specifically states that illegal polygamy should stop because otherwise the saving ordinances will be halted by the US government. If the Church is to be left alone in Jerusalem…

Second of all, the position of Bishop, Stake President, and General Authority is temporary, Bishops usually serve only five years or so...

GA’s aren’t called temporarily, unless I’m very much mistaken. In the 19th century, higher callings were usually “temporary” only in the sense that they led to still higher callings.

Plus, traditional Latter-Day Saints wouldn't see polygamy as a 'divine reward', if there is polygamy at all it would go to all. If you wanted to limit it, the most you could do maybe is limit it to those that have served a Mission and had their endowments.

Indeed, the experience of polygamy was generally more of a test of faith than a reward. The Church could limit the practice to those prepared to endure the trials and the reward of that test in some fashion. Anyway, it wouldn’t be “open to anybody,” if OTL is any judge: it wouldn’t be open to men whose first wife wouldn’t accept it, nor to men who couldn’t afford more kids, which in this TL would be lots of ‘em, at least initially…

Anyhoo:

1871: The President of the Church receives a revelation that Solomon’s Temple was located not where the Muslim Dome of the Rock now sits, but rather over Gihon Spring just north of the ancient City of David and on the southeastern ridge of Jerusalem. The Church is commanded to build a Temple at that site in accordance with the specifications laid out in the Old Testament. Land is acquired and set aside for this purpose. The area will become the center of Latter-day Saint settlement in Jerusalem.

 

[NapoleonXIV]

1. I will assume you must be transporting all these Mormons in cattle cars on these RR you are building.

2. I am further assuming you are building all these RR with this 4x increased Army

3. Then you must be also using this Army to rebuild your Merchant Marine, which the UK destroyed in the war, otherwise, how are you getting the Mormons to Palestine.

4. Where are you getting all the steel, even just for the RR, let alone the ships? However, what the hell, you already have every man, woman and child in America into this increased war production so I guess sacrificing our steel production for the next 50 years is a small price.

5. WHY is the US doing this? Why are we conquering foreign territory to give to people we are kicking out? Generally, it's easier to kill people who are giving you trouble at home...er..at home, instead of killing people who are overseas so as to take their territory and then forcibly resettling your troublemakers in land your soldiers have just died for.

6. And finally, if what you really wanted to do was put the Mormons in Palestine why not just...uh.... have them go there on their own

 

[Darkest]

6. And finally, if what you really wanted to do was put the Mormons in Palestine why not just...uh.... have them go there on their own

You'd need a serious doctrine change. Everywhere throughout the Book of Mormon America is known as the promised land, a place for the Children of God. Unless you meant the Mormons just were interested in converting the area more than OTL.

They certainly are heavily persecuted. It seems that the ultimatum was more like “Convert, hit the road, or die.”

So, is the Mormon Church not allowed in the United States of America? Was there a conversion episode where Mormons were forced to convert or die?

It would appear that the answer to both questions is "no."

Well, you contradicted yourself right there, just a minor nitpick.

GA’s aren’t called temporarily, unless I’m very much mistaken. In the 19th century, higher callings were usually “temporary” only in the sense that they led to still higher callings.

GAs are usually permanent, but its not the rule. Stake Presidents and Bishops, however, are very temporary.

 

[wkwillis]

You know, the idea of Mormons moving to Israel is every bit as stupid as the idea of Jews moving to Israel. I regret bringing up this ATL. It might give someone ideas.
Now if I could just get the Republicans to move to Israel...followed by the Democrats...